Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

  • Quote

    While a con-man could do this, it also, better, fits a deluded inventor

    No it doesn't. HELL NO, it doesn't. Deluded but honest inventors eventually take the advice of others and perform or allow to be performed definitive tests. They don't deliberately lie to and deceive others in order to con them out of money. They don't behave in any way like Rossi does. To deceive oneself about a working ecat not to mention a QuarkX would require stupidity far beyond Rossi's. He's not terribly smart (most con men are skilled and cunning but not all that intelligent) but he's smarter than to believe his own sh*t. And while his behavior may reflect some psychopathology, he is not classically insane either, thus it is not some sort of psychotic delusional system. He's simply a classical, typical, run of the mill, ordinary con man whose skill is choosing his marks and who was inordinately lucky... until he overextended himself with the absurd IH deal. Rossi is sort of a sophisticated version of a Nigerian scammer. He just happened to land himself in a field where the believers were being constantly frustrated in their search and were very needy for some successes. His skills in conning and his total sociopathy made it possible for him to exploit this extensively.

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    Andrea Rossi's e-Cat is a Schrödinger's cat and will be until it hits the market, which is the final and ultimate arbiter.

    Yup. The market is always the "ultimate arbiter" of science and technology. I won't believe neutrinos are real until I can buy a few dozen at Home Depot.


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    Yes. The idea that seems to be abroad is that there is a pump somewhere on the JMP side that does many things in a way so novel that Mr Rossi can't even speak about it for fear of endangering some patent application.

    Shoore. The Genius of Bodena is now a pump expert. Pump and dump expert maybe.

  • The above classification has no relationship to Rossi.

    Rossi is the subject of the great majority of comments on this forum.

    Perhaps you could consider in advance what type of results would indicate I was right? I can't see any lying or obviously spoofed experiment from Rossi that has in the past caused those like you who think Rossi has it for real to think that


    I'm not expecting you to believe any result from Rossi's October demonstration as you have already made it clear you find anything done by Rossi will not work and is just fraudulent. Likewise any replication, such as Parkhomov's, that supports Rossi's results must be in error.
    .As Rossi forecast, people like you will only believe it works when there are working units out in the field.

    I care less about what Rossi will say about the demo but will judge it for myself according to the reported data and inspection of the calorimetry.

  • It's possible, I suppose, that Dewey's gnomic utterances refer to a chance that evidence has been discovered that could be the basis of a criminal fraud prosecution.


    That would be satisfying!

    All that evidence has been entered into the court , under oath, for perusal, already on the docket. But the chances that a competent criminal legal team would use it to bring charges against Rossi are so small that even the anti-Rossi crowd around here is frustrated about picking up the phone to let authorities know about this evidence. So the anti-Rossi crowd has been reduced to suggesting that the IRS would be the ones to call because, well, maybe Rossi didn't pay his taxes. There is little doubt that if the participants of this forum were to be held to the same standard of conduct in terms of taxes, maybe a third of them would be in jail for tax fraud as well.

  • @ IH Fanboy,

    Quote

    Ascoli65 wrote:

    I agree, this test is interesting, but it is bound to be inconclusive.

    With this I agree. Andrea Rossi's e-Cat is a Schrödinger's cat and will be until it hits the market, which is the final and ultimate arbiter.



    The present Prominent pump test will be inconclusive, but the January 2011 demo was already conclusive:

    maryyugos's pink invisible flying unicorn will beat the Ecat on hitting the market first.

  • Perhaps you could consider in advance what type of results would indicate I was right? I can't see any lying or obviously spoofed experiment from Rossi that has in the past caused those like you who think Rossi has it for real to think that?

    Rossi allowed black box testing from a group of Swedes, some of whom were active in the Swedish Skeptics Society or something like that. I would suggest that Rossi could do a demo and allow Jed Rothwell and a couple of other healthy skeptics to measure the devices using their own tools. I think that once that happens then the hyperskeptics would start saying Jed is in on the scam. If I were in Rossi's shoes I wouldn't let Mary Yugo measure anything because Mary has shown that he has so little moral credibility that he would rather fake his own results to prove a negative than allow a positive result to get through.

  • And yet they did discuss and correct the previous paper. I don't know why they clammed up after Lugano. Your explanation that they were cowardly or incompetent does not fit the facts, because they were not cowardly or incompetent a year earlier.


    I can't explain it. Neither can you.

    The swedish blind mice were coralled by their employers who started to lose credibility in the scientific community. So the mice were threatened with losing their jobs and their tenure and their retirement or somesuch things. It's the usual path that has been taken to silence LENR researchers. And no, I do not have direct evidence of such a thing, just like the skeptopaths don't have direct evidence that such a thing never happened. It's not like we can approach the employers and ask directly "did you threaten these guys' livelihoods?" and expect an honest answer.

  • It isn't just the possibility of spoofing. In the case of the 1-year demo, we have iron-clad proof from Rossi himself that the results were fraud, in the form of the Penon report. He himself tacitly admitted this when he made up the absurd story of the invisible mezzanine heat exchanger that does not appear in photos.

    It is not iron clad proof, otherwise the criminal authorities would be filing a case and putting Rossi in handcuffs as we speak. It is more like "solid evidence" or as some would characterize it, just plain evidence.

  • How much evidence do you need that he is a con man and a crook? .... What will convince you? Anything?

    Charges to be filed by criminal authorities against Rossi, that's the evidence that would convince me. After all, the evidence is right there, juicy and waiting, submitted under oath into the docket. All that evidence is just SITTING THERE. How much evidence do you need to see that there isn't enough to proceed on? Every day that passes by is a new day that the legal authorities have not proceeded against this supposed con man and crook because they have bigger fish to fry, even though there is supposedly 'proof' of his conman activities right in the docket.

  • Rossi allowed black box testing from a group of Swedes, some of whom were active in the Swedish Skeptics Society or something like that. I would suggest that Rossi could do a demo and allow Jed Rothwell and a couple of other healthy skeptics to measure the devices using their own tools. I think that once that happens then the hyperskeptics would start saying Jed is in on the scam. If I were in Rossi's shoes I wouldn't let Mary Yugo measure anything because Mary has shown that he has so little moral credibility that he would rather fake his own results to prove a negative than allow a positive result to get through.


    Kev - predict all you like but that is not true.


    Let me predict:

    Rossi would never allow Jed within a million miles of his stuff, since Jed has now shown himself to be a snake.


    From my POV Jed has significant expertise but is not a general scientist or engineer. For example, he saw the general issues (lack of control etc) in Lugano, but not the specific mistake that led to the vast COP overestimation. So while I'd trust him more than most people I would not trust him to find all of Rossi's spoofs.


    Let me make a broader prediction: Rossi will level allow anyone who is not a friend to test his stuff. (the Swedes, you will remember, were friends and strong Rossi supporters before ever allowed to do the test).

  • Yup. The market is always the "ultimate arbiter" of science and technology.

    By and large, the scientific establishment has dismissed CF/LENR due to unrelenting pressure applied by hot fusion plasma physicists (for their own selfish purposes). What is left is the market, which is the ultimate arbiter of most things, including this.

  • As Rossi forecast, people like you will only believe it works when there are working units out in the field.

    +1. And if/when this happens, the I-hate-Rossi crowd will take credit and say something like: "see, we were just helping the whole time--forcing Rossi's hand as it were. You should all be grateful for our very important contribution. Without us, it would have never come to market."


    It won't be exactly that, but that will be the gist of it.

  • All that evidence has been entered into the court , under oath, for perusal, already on the docket. But the chances that a competent criminal legal team would use it to bring charges against Rossi are so small that even the anti-Rossi crowd around here is frustrated about picking up the phone to let authorities know about this evidence. So the anti-Rossi crowd has been reduced to suggesting that the IRS would be the ones to call because, well, maybe Rossi didn't pay his taxes. There is little doubt that if the participants of this forum were to be held to the same standard of conduct in terms of taxes, maybe a third of them would be in jail for tax fraud as well.

    Ah yes, there is much hypocrisy here. When the I-hate-Rossi crowd began attacking Rossi on possibly not paying his taxes that were due, I questioned how many here have kept track of their online purchases over the years (during the decade when online companies didn't collect sales taxes), and report those purchases to the appropriate state taxing authorities. Crickets. Because nobody here did that, all in violation of tax laws. Ever sold something through the classifieds or Craiglist? Did you track the basis in your property and pay the appropriate capital gains taxes on those as well? I would venture to guess: nope. What about a barter? Have you ever bartered anything? Did you track the basis in the bartered item and pay the appropriate capital gains due on that as well? Nope. Have you traded a service for another service? Did you pay the appropriate income tax on the value of the services received? Doubtful. Hypocrites.

  • Let's say you were Rossi and you needed to invite 3 people to bring their own tools and test your device. Who would be trustworthy enough for you to nominate to test it? I recall during the Swedish testing that they were criticized for not testing the powder itself, for treating it like a black box because Rossi didn't want his IP to be stolen.


    I have submitted in the past that Rossi should sign up for the $20M X prize for energy. But that X prize was never funded as far as I can tell.

  • Don't you think think this was their intention when paying 11 Mio$ to get the proper loading information from Rossi? They failed and so are failing others who try to replicate Rossi's claims...maybe his reactor and his ECTA techology never worked, indeed....

    Of course, it was their intention, but they failed for their own fault. Darden admitted to having put the wrong fuel into the reactor he gave to Boeing, as you can read in the doc 326 - Defendants' witnesses:

    Q. Does this refresh your recollection as to any explanation that had been provided as to why the E‐Cat may not have worked?

    A. Yes. It is indicating that they may have had a slight difference in the fuel.

    Q. In fact, I believe in this email dated 14 November 21st, 2014, from Mr. Darden to yourself, Mr. Vaughn, and Mr. Dameron, Mr. Darden states, "I was hopeful, but also worried due to the change I made to the fuel based on the material supply issue." Was it your understanding, sir, that the fuel was not the same as Dr. Rossi's fuel, based on that comment?

    A. So I ‐‐ yeah. So apparently, based on that comment, I would say that, yes, that is not necessarily exactly the same. So yeah. I ‐‐ I ‐‐ I take the face ‐‐ comment at face value.


    Darden can't say that Rossi did not give him all the information to be able to create an E-Cat .... if he does not follow the procedures properly, how can he expect to get a working reactor? IH failed for incompetence. And who would be these "others" who are failing? I do not know that there are any attempts to replicate the E-cat now, if not that of the Swedish professors who seems are getting good results.

  • keV


    There is plenty of evidence to prosecute Rossi. And it's been turned over to the relevant departments of the Florida state government. Probably by several people. The problem is not a lack of evidence, the issue is priority compared to murder and rape cases, for example. And relatively small fraud is hard to prosecute and prove, especially with all the cast of motley characters this drama had. But give it time. It may still happen.


    BTW, you should not be convinced by Rossi being charged. Charging someone is not proof of much. If you are going to require proof of a crime, you need wait until conviction. Important distinction.


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    Rossi would never allow Jed within a million miles of his stuff, since Jed has now shown himself to be a snake.

    And probably a clown as well. All Rossinemies are snakes and clowns. And agents of someone or something else.


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    I have submitted in the past that Rossi should sign up for the $20M X prize for energy. But that X prize was never funded as far as I can tell

    Oh poofidle! All Rossi would have to do if he ever had had a properly tested and working device would have been to show it all to any wealthy individual -- Musk, Bezos, Gates, etc. or any large company, Boeing, Airbus, GE, GM or any testing lab, UL, Sandia, ORNL, etc. etc. Rossi wouldn't need an X-prize or a self funding site or the greatest energy invention of the current century! What crappola to pretend he would.

  • Ah yes, there is much hypocrisy here. When the I-hate-Rossi crowd began attacking Rossi on possibly not paying his taxes that were due, I questioned how many here have kept track of their online purchases over the years (during the decade when online companies didn't collect sales taxes), and report those purchases to the appropriate state taxing authorities. Crickets. Because nobody here did that, all in violation of tax laws.

    I doubt it's in violation of the tax laws because the laws hadn't been written yet. I live in California, which is as far as I can tell the first state to start taxing internet purchases.

  • he "re-writes" his lawsuit intentions when he loses and he has to keep face with this supporters!!!

    Rossi has never commented on the process, he has always abstained from expressing any opinion about it. Only after the settlement Rossi granted two interviews, the first of which was with Mats Lewan, and only in this case he explained his point of view:

    "So my lawyers asked me before the trial which my priorities were if the trial would lead to any transactions—those indispensable and those negotiable. My answer was that the indispensable condition was to get the license back because I didn’t want to collaborate with IH anymore." (https://animpossibleinvention.…-was-rossis-top-priority/)

    Obviously, he would not be sorry to get both the money for the test and the IP, but when he was forced to choose, he preferred to be sure to get back his IP. So Rossi did not re-write anything: you're the one who wants to read things in a way that makes you more enjoyable.

    • Official Post

    There is plenty of evidence to prosecute Rossi. And it's been turned over to the relevant departments of the Florida state government. Probably by several people. The problem is not a lack of evidence, the issue is priority compared to murder and rape cases, for example. And relatively small fraud is hard to prosecute and prove, especially with all the cast of motley characters this drama had. But give it time. It may still happen.


    In your dreams Mary. If IH were happy to walk away so quickly and drop their countersuit the chance that the local DA would be interested is remote, unless DW buys him a month'sworth of 9 Martini lunches. And Dewey is on a diet.