Prominent Gamma/L 0232 Flow Rate Test

  • Updating Alan Fletcher's results to Aug 10. "Post #" is the number of the post (this thread) that contains the raw data. All runs have a small negative pressure at the inlet, i.e., water is drawn up into the pump by suction


    Run Date Post # Outlet pressure (bar) Flow (L/h)
    06C Aug 02 331 0.00 42.3
    10A Aug 07 478 0.00 39.6
    11A Aug 07 490 0.00 40.3
    11H Aug 07 493 0.03 39.6
    13C Aug 10 507 0.03 39.2
    13F Aug 10 529 0.03 39.4
    13G Aug 10 529 0.03 39.2
    01 Jul 31 206 0.15 36.1
    05E Aug 02 329 0.15 33.7


    I am also including a visualization of the data. The straight line is decorative only. I expect the relationship to be revealed as curved when more data come in.

  • I am also including a visualization of the data. The straight line is decorative only. I expect the relationship to be revealed as curved when more data come in.

    Great!

    Could you please digitize the Gamma L curve (0.5 bar to 2 bar) for reference. (In the gamma L manual ... fig 45 or thereabouts).

    And be ready to show both my "raw" curve (as here) and a "scaled" curve (to bring my 0.5 bar result equal to theirs).

    Are you JUST accounting for the discharge height/bars ... or the "backpressure" (discharge-suction) ?

  • Could you please digitize the Gamma L curve (0.5 bar to 2 bar) for reference. (In the gamma L manual ... fig 45 or thereabouts).

    And be ready to show both my "raw" curve (as here) and a "scaled" curve (to bring my 0.5 bar result equal to theirs).


    Good idea! I'll get it ready to go.


    Are you JUST accounting for the discharge height/bars ... or the "backpressure" (discharge-suction) ?


    I am NOT accounting for anything going on at the inlet right now. All pressures in the table and in the plot are at the discharge of the pump.


    Edit: If you want to take inlet pressure into account then just mentally slide the data points and the straight line in the plot horizontally to the right by 0.05 bar.

  • Update : new tower is built (currently at 14 feet, target 17) .... ready for a pressure test!
    Then just need to saw 3' base from a 2x6 .... with a hand-saw ...

    Edit :

    Video at

    (yeah ... I got wet!)

    New Prominent Gamma L Test Rig.


    Hose attached to 16 foot pole. Current discharge height is about 159 inches = 13.5 feet = 0.4 bar

    (Cheap) Manometer reads 4.2 psi = 0.30 bar

    I'll do a run at this height before raising the pole to 0.5 bar

  • So based on this single data point (of course, more needed), our prominent pump is running at ~80% the flow rate that would be expected.


    Okay, now I might make a few people mad, but bear with me as it's a simple conjecture at this point: Using a correction factor of 1.2 (i.e., 80% of expected flow rate), then at a slight 4in. head inlet pressure, one might expect to see ~56+ l/h (47 * 1.2), which would be ~90% of what Penon measured.


  • Not sure who posted the original with the yellow lines added, but I think they are either mistaken or purposely misleading. In light of Alan F.'s findings so far, I decided to inspect this image more closely. I believe the correct flow is shown in blue. If right, this means that the pumps have at least inches in head inlet pressure and in some cases multiple feet.


  • Not sure who posted the original with the yellow lines added, but I think they are either mistaken or purposely misleading. In light of Alan F.'s findings so far, I decided to inspect this image more closely. I believe the correct flow is shown in blue. If right, this means that the pumps have at least inches in head inlet pressure and in some cases multiple feet.


    The image and its yellow lines comes from someone who is an tireless defender of Rossi and who says that he has in the past discussed some of this with Rossi directly.


    The small blue arrows you have drawn in are wrong way around. The water for the Big Frankies comes from the internal reservoir sitting on the floor of the E-Cat plant. It makes its way to the pumps in the insulated piping you see running along beside the units on the floor to the right. The incoming water then turns 90 degrees and enters the white insulated pipe you see right at the foot of the Big Frankies. The plastic tubing you have spotted connects to this pipe and others like it that lie just behind it. The water rises up the tubing and into the pumps which means that your small blue arrows should be turned around.


    So the flow pattern shown in yellow is correct (although the bottom yellow arrow is a bit misleading and should be shown as going into one of the Big Frankie tanks). The horizontal yellow lines in the image are at the level of the meniscus for the two middle Big Frankies. The meniscus shows the water level in the Big Frankie container and that water level is manifestly at the outlet of the pumps. So, net, there is 0 bar backpressure on the pumps.


    The person who originally posted the image believes that the internal reservoir inside the E-Cat plant has a head of pressure on it. I view this as unlikely because this contradicts the descriptions of Penon, Barry West, and Rick Smith who have all viewed the system directly. But if the reservoir has a head of pressure on it then this would be transferred to the pump inlets.

  • Quote

    The small blue arrows you have drawn in are wrong way around. The water for the Big Frankies comes from the internal reservoir sitting on the floor of the E-Cat plant.


    Yes, I stand corrected on that point. My inlet lines were going the wrong direction, which means my assumption about head pressure due to gravity is also incorrect. Corrected image embedded here. But I still think the flow shown in yellow is wrong, because it makes it look like the pumps are just re-circulating water, which is not what is happening (as can be seen by the upper most rack of pumps, which clearly shows the pumped water entering the BF box behind the pumps. So, we are back to the question of whether there was a head of pressure from the reservoir to the inlets of the pumps.


  • Okay, here is a hint from Barry:


    207-61, pp. 88-89

    A. Yeah, well, everything that came back as

    23 condensate needed a vessel to flow into, and that was

    24 done away with altogether. Everything came back into a

    25 smaller tank that was inside the unit, and the larger

    Page 89

    1 tank, which originally was going to be condensate

    2 return tank, and then we were going to pump the water

    3 back into the units. That ended up being -- we built a

    4 big stand a little taller than this table, really heavy

    5 duty stand out of wood to support that large tank full

    6 of water, which this thing held, I forget how many

    7 gallons, 55-gallon drums, it probably held 6, 800

    8 gallons or more, maybe a thousand gallons of water,

    9 which is substantially heavy. But it had to be up so

    10 gravity could allow it to flow into the system.

    11 So Dave Perry come down one time to check

    12 us out and then help with the design or that stand, if

    13 you will, and then we just attached a rubber hose into

    14 the water fill inside and allowed gravity to feed it.

    15 This was based on Andrea.


    So it sounds like the head of pressure to the pump inlets was due to gravity.

  • @IH Fanboy


    The bottom yellow arrow in the image is a bit misleading. I think the person who drew it is trying to show exactly what you are showing with the corresponding arrow you have drawn near the top of the setup.


    In fact you both have it just slightly wrong. What really happens is that after coming out of the pumps the water heads up, to the left, and then down, just as you have it, but then it heads directly backwards (away from the viewer) for a short stretch and connects to the bottom of the sight glass. At that point it turns right and enters its Big Frankie.


    People keep bringing up this idea that the internal reservoir for the E-Cat plant is sealed and has a head of pressure on it. But in this case I don't understand how the external reservoir sitting outside the E-Cat plant, feeds the internal reservoir by gravity as described by Penon and Barry West.

  • So it sounds like the head of pressure to the pump inlets was due to gravity.


    No. That head of pressure is tiny. The external tank West is describing is the one you can see sitting in its wooden cradle outside the red E-Cat shipping container in the photo I have attached. It is max 3 feet or so above the floor of the shipping container. No higher than the internal reservoir actually. The water surface in both tanks is supposed to be the same as far as I can figure out.




  • So it sounds like the head of pressure to the pump inlets was due to gravity.


    Since both the internal tank and the outside tank are much lower then the higher rows of Prominents, just gravity alone can not feed the Prominents.

    If we had just gravity, those higher Prominents would have had a negative inlet pressure

    The Prominents can maybe overcome this negative pressure by the sucking action as they increase their internal volume during the inlet stroke but I find this an unlikely scenario.


    @IH Fanboy


    People keep bringing up this idea that the internal reservoir for the E-Cat plant is sealed and has a head of pressure on it. But in this case I don't understand how the external reservoir sitting outside the E-Cat plant, feeds the internal reservoir by gravity as described by Penon and Barry West.


    In case the internal tanks have a pressure on it, then that pressure can feed the Prominents with a positive inlet pressure while at the same time due to the hight difference between the external tank and the external tank can feed the internal one. The water pressure is possibly provided by the additional pump on the JM side which AR describes in his notes about the Smith report.

  • In case the internal tanks have a pressure on it, then that pressure can feed the Prominents with a positive inlet pressure while at the same time due to the hight difference between the external tank and the external tank can feed the internal one. The water pressure is possibly provided by the additional pump on the JM side which AR describes in his notes about the Smith report.


    There isn't really a height difference between the internal and external reservoirs. Not much of one anyway. Don't forget that the floor of the E-Cat plant is 3 feet of the ground.


    The external reservoir is there so that water can be added to the E-Cat system during startup and to replace water lost through leaks. If there was a head of pressure equal to at least the height of the topmost Big Frankie on the internal reservoir, then water would flow backwards from it to the external reservoir and come spurting out.

  • Does anyone recall whether we have access to a picture showing the height of the return condensate reservoir tank relative to the height of the pumps?


    Here (left) is a picture looking down the inside of the E-Cat plant from the east end (i.e., from the end that does not contain the Big Frankies). You can see the internal reservoir (arrow) sitting on the floor with the back end of the Big Frankies rack looming above it.


    The area of the internal reservoir is shown in a blown up (right) so you can see detail. The reservoir is a white insulated box with a black pipe running in to it on a bit of an angle. That is the pipe coming from the external reservoir sitting outside the south side of the shipping container.


  • That may well be so IHFB.


    But have you worked out the significance? If so, then the temperature readings for the main tank (70C) are irrelevant. Hot near boiling water can be circulated round and through the e-cats, meaning that unless there is a phase change the power required is minimal.


    As I'm sure you know there is no evidence for a phase change, and Rossi has a past history of claiming phase change when in fact none (or only 1%) of this exists.

  • Alan Fletcher


    Alan - Do you see obvious reason why the pump is under performing? Could there be deposits inside the liquid end from this pump's previous life?


    There are maintenance steps in the Prominent manual that you might consider at some point. Not now though I think.

    No. They offer a repair kit (both valves and diaphragm) -- never did get a quote from Prominent/California.

  • Alan Fletcher


    Is this the repair kit you had in mind? It has order number 1023124 and the following specifications ...


    "Spare Parts Kits for Solenoid-Driven Metering Pump Beta® a and gamma/ L

    Spare parts kits for Beta® a und gamma/ L, consisting of:

    • 1 diaphragm
    • 1 suction valve assembly
    • 1 discharge valve assembly
    • 2 valve balls
    • 1 connector kit"

    If you and IH Fanboy would like, I can look into ordering this at my expense and and having it shipped to you.

  • Yes ... BUT in my latest full-height run (timed from my TIMER) I got a discrepancy between actual strokes and expected strokes (at 180/minute).


    20C ALSO has a time/pulse discrepancy .... best to flag those results as "Preliminary".

    Avidemux is reporting (I think) different frame rates for different runs, so for now I'm going to use my $1-timer as the master clock! Timing is MM:SS:FF where FF is frames from when the timer changed. (Have to change my spreadsheet from count-up to count-down).

    I'm going to have to set a camera for the WHOLE run and see if/when Gamma is dropping strokes. (And right now my biggest problem is reflections off the screens and the contrast between the GPS and timer screens).

    Running out of time for today ....


    Edit : I'm going off to get ready for my 3pm gotta-go. I need ONE MORE plumbing part! (L-connector for manometer).


    So .... don't expect any more results today.