Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion


  • Thank you for the "Rick Smith" trip down memory lane.

    Of all the players. I rate him as least competent compared to expectations. (And the most irritating).

    He's the one who mis-read the pump specification as "Maximum" where it's actually "Minimum'.
    "Max Flow 32 l/hr".

    Maybe he can be forgiven for not realizing that that specification is significantly exceeded at low head.


    Quote

    In the vast majority of the cases, this cell content was 36000, not 35837, or

    36714, but 36000 exactly. 27000 and 29000 were well represented also. This is undoubtedly the
    most uniform data collection which this author has seen in his forty plus years of engineering.
    There is no reason or need to round data to the nearest 1000 in a report like this. In fact, one
    needs to use the “Round” function in a spreadsheet to get numbers to display like this. This
    author has more comments on the water meter later in the report.


    That's because the main dial only reads out thousands. 36, 27 and 29.
    (The other digits were available on hard-to-get-to internal dials)


    [ Quote isn't working right ... START ]


    On 2. Dec 2015, Mr. Fabiani notes this, “power decrease to 700kw upon client's request”. However, Mr.
    Penon’s data indicates a produced energy value of 1,41E+07, which is engineering notation for
    14,100,000 watts per day. Dividing this by 24 hours yields 587,500 watts or 587.5KW. There is a
    112.5KW discrepancy between Mr. Fabiani’s data and Mr. Penon’s reported output. One could logically
    ask who is correct, and why the discrepancy.


    On 22. Dec 2015, Mr. Fabiani notes this, “reactor 2 reboot and power generated taken back to 1MWh/h
    upon client's request”. Similarly, Mr. Penon reports a produced energy value of 2,03E+07, or 20,300,000
    watts per day. Dividing by 24 yields 845,833 watts, or 845.3 KW. There is a 154.2KW discrepancy here.


    Because of these incidents, and likely many others, all of the data in the Penon report must be viewed
    with extreme skepticism.

    [ END ]

    The "Penon" readings were taken at a set time of day. If the “power decrease to 700kw upon client's request” took place at EXACTLY the same time as the meter was read, then the two figures might agree.

    But they were most likely done at a different time ... lets say 6 hours. (I didn't do the revers-average math)

    Penon = 18 hours at 1 MW + 6 hours at 700kw

    Of course it will differ.

    [QUOTE]
    To use “COP” as a measure of the efficiency of a heat producing device (the E-Cat), as opposed to a work absorbing device (an air conditioner), is a misapplication of the term.
    [END]

    It's a perfectly fine term, is well defined, and is widely used in the LENR community.

    On the irritating side ... why introduce a picture of a 1GW high-pressure COAL-fired power plant and compare it with a 1 MW low-pressure plant?

    and "The astute reader will notice" .....

    "To illustrate, if one boils water (212° F) to make sweet tea and leaves the hot tea sitting

    on the counter, what happens to it? Does it naturally get hotter or does it eventually cool down
    to room temperature? We all know ...... "

    Why Sweet tea? Does it matter if it's not sweet?


  • Because is is silly to think that the pumps would be used in a way that is far outside of their calibration range, while controlling the working fluid of a nuclear reactor in a way that metering itself is as much luck as a measurement.

    And totally silly that heat would be measured in 1000's of liters and recorded manually when the gauge is designed to send pulses every 100 L electronically, a part of a package literally designed to measure heat delivery. If that 100 L pulse generator cover were removed, then the dials are very easy to see and read: dials like that are read all over the world for water use and until recently (and still in many places) for reading electrical consumption meters.

  • And totally silly that heat would be measured in 1000's of liters and recorded manually when the gauge is designed to send pulses every 100 L electronically, a part of a package literally designed to measure heat delivery. If that 100 L pulse generator cover were removed, then the dials are very easy to see and read: dials like that are read all over the world for water use and until recently (and still in many places) for reading electrical consumption meters.


    So why didn't Smith say something along those lines?

    Instead of "This is undoubtedly the most uniform data collection which this author has seen in his forty plus years of engineering."

  • Camillo, the poster on Cobraf who claims to have been at one of the early independent Ecat tests, had this interesting perspective:


    I summarize:

    Since 1989, a strange phenomenon of unexplained heat increase has been reported. In an attempt to frame it in the known, it was sought to "propose" as an explanation the fact that hydrogen penetrated Nickel (and many other materials), accumulating in the crystalline and at some point inexplicably able to pass the Coulombian barrier.

    Now it seems that unlike what we thought, I first, is not to be framed in a phenomenon of confinement of the hydrogen proton in the lattices of various minerals.

    The first to notice were Fleischmann and Pons , then a big contribution was given by Piantelli, finally Rossi.

    It is likely that both Fleischmann and Piantelli would adsorb (adsorb = gas within solid) with IMPULSED current. Rossi then certainly did it.

    Without that impulse the phenomenon does not happen, in the presence of the impulse the phenomenon remains uncertain depending on intensity and quality of the impulse (it must be as intense and unidirectional as possible)

    Rossi did not have the repetition feared, but he understood that the secret was in the trigger mode rather than the triggered mixture.

    Rossi knew he was holding a real phenomenon, but his attempts to make it repeatable and controllable were in vain.

    Time passed and his promises left the suspicion of ....

    Rossi realized that the key point was that if he could get the reaction to trigger then it was very easy to maintain it and often achieved self-support.

    He therefore tried to find a minimum repeatable trigger condition. He sought repeatability and no more quantity. Eventually he came to the ignition match. He compared the "match" to a mouse. He said that the mouse's presence made the cat move, which in turn made the rat run.

    He worked hard to perfect the "mouse".

    And here was the turning point! The Qx presented in Stockholm showed that the key point was the impulse followed by an electromagnetic wave that "oriented" the phenomenon. The speech of adsorption completely skipped because at 600 ° the crystalline degrades.

    In the last year Rossi continued his research, varying the parameters, radiofrequency, addition of magnetic fields..etc. At a certain point from what it transpires is as if it had arrived very close to a self-stopping of the plasma that comes on (the dancer).

    Andrea Rossi now states - without any verification or proof from third parties - that the tiny reactor tube of an SK (only a few cubic centimeters in volume) can produce up to 27 kilowatts of thermal power with a minimum input. Indeed, in a statement issued to Mats Lewan, (a respected engineer and journalist who reported on the evolution of the E-Cat technology for several years), the output can be increased up to 60 kW for a short time. In some operating modes, it is argued that direct electrical output can also be produced, albeit with less efficiency.

  • IH's contention,

    read the detailed statements from IH,

    fact that IH statements are made under oath

    IH also had documents showing

    IH had a plan


    Yeah yeah, IH says ...


    Remember. These IH guys are simply business laywer money people. As untrustworthy as they are made. It's their business to manufacture narratives, half truths and lies. This is not news to anyone.

  • A mercury vapour lamp - like the one AR was using in his SK to fool everybody! You have to laugh at the complete tomfoolery of all this if it wasn't all so sad. Come on, AR conned IH into believing he had the goods, and now he has another party trick showing some pretty lights and backing it up with a crappy paper loosely cobbled together by his academic cronies - its all absolute rubbish from start to finish and I really wonder why anybody is still discussing any of this, seriously.

  • So why didn't Smith say something along those lines?

    Instead of "This is undoubtedly the most uniform data collection which this author has seen in his forty plus years of engineering."

    He was joking. That's geek humor. I thought his comment was hilarious. Yes, anyone can see the meter only reported in 1 ton units, and that is all they wrote in the log. It may have internal registers with finer data but they did not record them.


    Also, it is not possible the thing happened to turn over the exact same number of tons of water every day for weeks. It would be short one day and long the next. So they didn't actually look at the meter. They just wrote the same number every day.

  • A mercury vapour lamp - like the one AR was using in his SK to fool everybody! You have to laugh at the complete tomfoolery of all this if it wasn't all so sad. Come on, AR conned IH into believing he had the goods, and now he has another party trick showing some pretty lights and backing it up with a crappy paper loosely cobbled together by his academic cronies - its all absolute rubbish from start to finish and I really wonder why anybody is still discussing any of this, seriously.


    The more we talk about it, the more we forget how ridiculous the whole demo was. Periodically we need someone to slap us in the face and say "hey man, it was absolute rubbish". Thanks.

  • The more we talk about it, the more we forget how ridiculous the whole demo was. Periodically we need someone to slap us in the face and say "hey man, it was absolute rubbish". Thanks.


    After reading through this: http://coldfusioncommunity.net…ep-complete-Cassarino.pdf I would actually consider IH to be the prime scumbags of this story. It is obvious they did never intend to pay Rossi regardless of outcome but had no problem at all using Doral and the test as a marketing tool to raise money from at least Woodford and the probably the Chinese. I proves that IH sole interest was to raise money - never the E-Cat as a product. Luckily Rossi found out and went into "Fred Flintstone" mode.

  • This doesn't change Rossi's story of his deceptive "test" with removed windows, invisible heat exchangers, no goods coming in and no products out ("Platinum Sponge production!"), being his own customer (under oath) and writing bills to him self, etc.... you can't see the forest for the trees, as all other gullible believers (of course: Rossi said so, and it must be true).

  • After reading through this: http://coldfusioncommunity.net…ep-complete-Cassarino.pdf I would actually consider IH to be the prime scumbags of this story. It is obvious they did never intend to pay Rossi regardless of outcome but had no problem at all using Doral and the test as a marketing tool to raise money from at least Woodford and the probably the Chinese. I proves that IH sole interest was to raise money - never the E-Cat as a product. Luckily Rossi found out and went into "Fred Flintstone" mode.


    I have always said if one digs deep enough into the court documents, there are some interesting tidbits regarding the Ecat technology. Nothing definitive, but a comment here, and there that added up may give one hope Rossi has something. Although nothing like what he claims, as his dropping the Ecat line immediately after the settlement proved.


    When it comes to what you are saying; that IH acted like scumbags...I disagree. The one thing they did have trouble explaining was why they continued using Doral to attract investments, when they clearly had doubts. I never saw a good answer for that in all the depositions. Other than that, I would say IH bent over backword to cater to his mercurial nature. Those same depositions though, show Rossi to be an exceptionally deceitful person. Just no getting around that no matter how loyal you are to the man, or how much you may dislike IH.

  • On the FPL input line, at the very beginning, one can see where there was 1 MWh consumed in one day, presumably heating up the water in the 50 or so “domestic water heaters”.

    But why the utility energy drops on weekends? Many of the reactor problems also occurred on weekends.

  • A mercury vapour lamp - like the one AR was using in his SK to fool everybody! You have to laugh at the complete tomfoolery of all this if it wasn't all so sad. Come on, AR conned IH into believing he had the goods, and now he has another party trick showing some pretty lights and backing it up with a crappy paper loosely cobbled together by his academic cronies - its all absolute rubbish from start to finish and I really wonder why anybody is still discussing any of this, seriously.

    Not an Hg lamp, but agree with rest.


    Edit: The 365 nm peak version was barely perceptibly glowing, BTW.

  • This doesn't change Rossi's story of his deceptive "test" with removed windows, invisible heat exchangers, no goods coming in and no products out ("Platinum Sponge production!"), being his own customer (under oath) and writing bills to him self, etc.... you can't see the forest for the trees, as all other gullible believers (of course: Rossi said so, and it must be true).


    Well, most of it are only speculations from people who wasn't even close to the story. Everything in the court docs are under oath. And I consider it to be much more likely that IH to by by far less trustworthy than Rossi in this matter. I mean they are just simple money people in business to raise money, any means needed. For them Rossi was just another money raising event - who they seriously underestimated. The Cassarino file shows this beyond every doubt.

  • he one thing they did have trouble explaining was why they continued using Doral to attract investments, when they clearly had doubts.


    They never had any doubts. That's the thing. They were ecstatic since they believed they would raise a lot of money and get the IP for peanuts, and as Cassarino shows they never intended to pay Rossi because they thought the contract was on their side (time line, six cylinder, etc and they expected to renegotiate (maybe if still considered useful) with Rossi after they raised money and had the IP). Cassarino show they were deliberately extremely vague about the significance of the Doral test for the reasons I stated. Although their HUGE mistake was to underestimate Rossi. They did not expect him to sue them and make everything public. That's where they failed big.

  • When it comes to what you are saying; that IH acted like scumbags...I disagree. The one thing they did have trouble explaining was why they continued using Doral to attract investments, when they clearly had doubts.


    I don't think they used Doral to attract investments. Yes they had people tour the plan but that was because the investors requested to see what some of the money was spent for. Those investors visited other IH sites as well.


    Do you really think that IH should have blocked such visits when investors requested it?

  • I would say IH bent over backword to cater to his mercurial nature. Those same depositions though, show Rossi to be an exceptionally deceitful person. Just no getting around that no matter how loyal you are to the man, or how much you may dislike IH.


    I guess they did all they could to achieve their goals. Cassarino (who seems pretty smart) describes the process well. The goal was always to raise money and deceive Rossi of their true intentions (Don't disturb him, etc. ). They needed him to believe he was going to get paid if the test was successful - but they thought all the time they had the upper hand. Of course Rossi needed to act when he found out he was being deceived (but IH started it, Cassarino shows that). He then understood he was not going to get paid so he took the Flintstone approach and sued them after the test. Then IH of course had to engage in the mexican knife fight - and invent an almost nobel class piece of fraud fairy tale.

  • I don't think they used Doral to attract investments. Yes they had people tour the plan but that was because the investors requested to see what some of the money was spent for. Those investors visited other IH sites as well.


    Do you really think that IH should have blocked such visits when investors requested it?


    IH incentives are really very simple. They wanted to raise as much money as possible - nothing else. This probably turned out to be a little harder sell than expected though, since LENR is not a very established tech. The Rossi/Doral plant was no doubt their prime marketing tool (it was the only real pilot). I seem to remember Woodford even said that somewhere when the SHTF occured.