Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

LEC replications that do not work may be actually working at a narrower electrode spacing. I got lucky as I initially tested 0.2 mm; when I tried 0.3 mm, the effect did not show any voltage in my case (Fe on Fe).

If the electrodes do not need to be in direct sight relatively to each other, but any dielectric material placed inbetween will make them work in the same way as I think I'm observing (still not 100% convinced), it should be relatively simple to use much narrower spacings, at least with planar electrodes. The voltage appears to increase at narrower spacings.

If this effect is due to radiation, it must be of a type energetic enough to pass through at least a 0.1mm mica layer and penetrating enough not to be affected appreciably by it.

can

Interesting that you see a result even when there are mica sheets entirely filling the gap. The only textbook physics I can think of that could (perhaps) explain what you see would be 'both pieces of metal are slightly magnetised by the electrolysis process, and bringing them together creates a changing magnetic field that produces a current which is retained as it would be in a capacitor'.

As for the Geiger- I will drop a freshly brewed plate onto a pancake detector - perhaps tomorrow.

Congrats can! In a very short time you made a number of really insightful experiments!

Your plating process in "Fast and Furious" mode (1 or 2 hours) seem to be effective: it is good to make some quick tests on the emitted radiation without have to wait 7 or 8 hours!

As for the distance, we expected that the effect will decrease. You showed it experimentally probably for the first time. By better characterising the function, we can get some insight on the nature of the radiation and its energy. All the devices tested up to now have a spacing > 0.5 mm, and usually with an enclosed reactor, it takes some time for the voltage to increase (the air in the gap takes some time to be ionised). The voltage you got with 0.1 mm is quite high! It can be readily used for some applications.

The test with interposed mica is really impressive and very important: it need to be repeated. If the voltage is not an artefact (as hypotised by Alan), it means that the radiation has even a greater energy than we thought. Have you noticed if, with the mica in between, the voltage rapidly decreased while the multimeter was connected? Or it was relatively steady? What was the voltage you got?

A question about the plating process: what did you use as the anode? Did you see bubbling on the cathode? (Either while running only on water and then with HCl)

[In case you missed it, this was the report from my experiments: Post #315 ]

Quote from Stevenson

Your plating process in "Fast and Furious" mode (1 or 2 hours) seem to be effective: it is good to make some quick tests on the emitted radiation without have to wait 7 or 8 hours!

By the way, the initial time of 1 or 2 hours was after several tests, but I suspect it could shorter than that. Also, once the cathode "discharges" it only takes a few minutes to make it work as before, but possibly the same would happen if it was in a closed cell and hydrogen gas could be admitted.

Quote from Stevenson

The test with interposed mica is really impressive and very important: it need to be repeated. If the voltage is not an artefact (as hypotised by Alan), it means that the radiation has even a greater energy than we thought. Have you noticed if, with the mica in between, the voltage rapidly decreased while the multimeter was connected? Or it was relatively steady? What was the voltage you got?

Voltage appeared to slowly decrease with the multimeter connected either with or without the mica sheets, although it might have possibly decreased somewhat slower with the mica sheets on. After it stopped working completely following the last test yesterday, I checked the cathode surface and it appeared rusted. Below is how it looks today. I could make a video of the voltage decrease if needed (or just post the data when/if I'll try that).

Quote from Stevenson

A question about the plating process: what did you use as the anode? Did you see bubbling on the cathode? (Either while running only on water and then with HCl)

I used a scrap steel sheet from an old computer case bolted onto another mild steel bracket of the same type as the cathode. I filled water up to the height of sheet. It rusts quickly in the atmosphere.

Bubbling definitely occurred and I think it is expected due to the large overvoltage generally applied to the electrodes in my case.

Quote from Stevenson

[In case you missed it, this was the report from my experiments: Post #315 ]

I missed that, thanks.

Quote from Alan Smith

can

Interesting that you see a result even when there are mica sheets entirely filling the gap. The only textbook physics I can think of that could (perhaps) explain what you see would be 'both pieces of metal are slightly magnetised by the electrolysis process, and bringing them together creates a changing magnetic field that produces a current which is retained as it would be in a capacitor'.

As for the Geiger- I will drop a freshly brewed plate onto a pancake detector - perhaps tomorrow.

I have no other idea on what could the effect come from, but the distance dependence yesterday made me think of capacitors, which is why I thought of filling the gap with mica sheets (a better dielectric material than air).

EDIT: Since I likely made an experimental mistake, I am also likely not observing a LEC effect. Keeping the post available to preserve the discussion, under the spoiler tag.

EDIT: Since I likely made an experimental mistake, I am also likely not observing a LEC effect. Keeping the post available to preserve the discussion, under the spoiler tag.

If you have time, could you try once more with bicarbonate electrolyte?

EDIT: Since I likely made an experimental mistake, I am also likely not observing a LEC effect. Keeping the post available to preserve the discussion, under the spoiler tag.

Quote from can

Voltage appeared to slowly decrease with the multimeter connected either with or without the mica sheets, although it might have possibly decreased somewhat slower with the mica sheets on.

I roughtly calculated the time constant of the circuit: about 100pF * 10MOhm it is in the range of ms, so if you were able to steadly reading the voltage, it was not due to a transient magnetic or electric induction phenomenon. However it is really difficult to figure out how the voltage can be generated even with the mica insulation. If this is confirmed it may imply that the "radiation" is not made by particles but is electromagnetic in nature.

Stevenson

I thought it could possibly be some sort of neutral particle ejected from the co-deposited layer that decays into an undetectable form (with the current instrumentation) after a short distance, but it's just speculation. Perhaps a cloud chamber could show something?

It can be small hydrogen.

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I pulled the two plated electrodes from the tank, rinsed them and dried with a paper towel. No audible sounds from them I could detect.

The side facing the anode has a rather rough surface, and as seen here a darker patch. This darker patch roughly corresponds to an un-plated area on the 'b' side- which as you can see is plated around the edges.

I put LDN Inc pancake particle detectors on top of both freshly plated and un-plated brass sheets - there was no significant difference in particle counts, nor increase above the normal lab background for either sheet.

Connecting these two plates to the DMMwhile separated as in' in the picture above gave a max reading of a couple of mV - I put that down to antenna effect - an artifact. Switching the two Geigers off entirely made no difference to the DMM reading. Connecting the DMM to two untouched but identical brass plates also gave a negligible reading...

The next thing was to stack the plates using 0.9mm microscope slides as spacers. This gave a peak reading of 350mV which over the next hour dropped down to 250mV. The benchtop DMM is still new territory for me, so I double checked the readings with a little clamp-meter I have which I know to be very accurate- result was 'spot on every time. Both meters were in agreement. Recovery time from a short circuit was not more than 5 seconds.

Figure on 'control' meter...not at the same exact moment- but they agreed very closely throughout. Much more closely than they do here.

Finally, at 90 minutes in -with these plates in air, not hydrogen - there's 270mV still coming out..

So, in the words of Bob Dylan - 'There's something going on here, but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr.Jones.'

All being well, more on Monday.

.

One more interesting feature - I separated the plates to swap the 0.9 mm microscope slides for 0.1mm microscope cover slips. When re-assembled the pair were producing just 30mV which then climbed very steadily over around 20 minutes to 250 mV approx.

Here's a video.

Also I noticed that any disturbance -for example tapping the be nch sharply next to the stack would cause a drop down to 150mV which would soon recover to around 250mV. It looks like the current is around 2mA - but I'm not sure that is a correct figure.

ETA- the plates are back in the tank -more fun tomorrow,

Alan Smith

2 mA would be a remarkably high current.

Commercially-available mica sheets of 0.07 mm thickness intended for electronic components can be easily found for cheap prices, but better materials with similar qualities perhaps exist. PTFE tape is the only other obvious choice I can think of, but it might be difficult to apply consistently and it's only good up to 180-200 °C.

Quote from Stevenson

I roughtly calculated the time constant of the circuit: about 100pF * 10MOhm it is in the range of ms, so if you were able to steadly reading the voltage, it was not due to a transient magnetic or electric induction phenomenon. However it is really difficult to figure out how the voltage can be generated even with the mica insulation. If this is confirmed it may imply that the "radiation" is not made by particles but is electromagnetic in nature.

Hi Stevenson 👋 and happy Sunday 😁 . From this source in section "Detection of Alpha Radiation using Geiger-Mueller Counter - End-Window type" they say:

"The window is usually made of mica"

and then they say:

"ideally a source of alpha radiation should be less than 10mm from the detector due to attenuation in air"

Superficially (I need to read more about mica), it seems that with a 0.1mm mica slide between the plates that alpha radiation could get through. Couldn't the voltage then just be due to the working electrode emitting alpha and then depositing that alpha onto the other plate. A charge difference would then build up which would then be measured as voltage.

matt.

The detectors I'm using are not really rated for Alphas - good for anything a little more penetrating.

So now Alan Smith has also been able to get voltage and a very handsome current with his iron plated brass sheets, really impressive!

Quote from can

Tried again. 1A constant current. Voltage was about 31V initially, dropping to 24V after a few minutes and after agitating the jar. The solution started cold, which could also be a factor. In any case, it still worked.

1 spacer (0.1mm) = 624 mV

2 spacers (0.2mm) = 315 mV

3 spacers (0.3mm) = did not work

EDIT: After a while

1 spacer (0.1mm) = 370 mV

2 spacers (0.2mm) = 40 mV

It seems as if the more time passes the lower the useful distance is, but it's difficult to make the distance consistent under my testing conditions, so take these results with a pinch of salt.

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I thought I'd see whether I could extract an energy for the hypothesised radiation from this data... assuming alpha particles.

In the absence of a more reliable text on range of alpha particles in air (I'll do some more digging on that later) I found this lecture and on slide 19 they show this image:

If I use 0.3mm = 0.03cm as the range and then rearrange the formula then I get an energy of 0.2 MeV.

If I use 0.2mm = 0.02cm as the range and then rearrange the formula then I get an energy of 0.16 MeV.

I also thought I'd try and find a sort of mean free path for the radiation in air using a simple exponential attenuation model, i.e:

Voltage at some distance = Voltage at zero distance X exp (- distance / mean free path)

I will write this more compactly as:

V = V0 e^(- D/L)

We have two readings so a lovely pair of simultaneous equations to solve 🤓 :

624 = V0 e^( - 0.1 / L) ------- eq 1

315 = V0 e^( - 0.2 / L) ------- eq 2

Dividing eq 1 by eq 2 we get:

1.98 = e^( -0.1 / L) / e^(-0.2 / L) = e^ (0.1 / L) ---- eq 3

logging both sides of eq 3 gives

log(1.98) = 0.1 / L and so:

mean free path L = 0.1 / log(1.98) = 0.14mm

I'm not sure how to reconcile this analysis with the "EDIT: After a while" numbers, but I thought it was an interesting exercise to do anyway.

matt

For what it's worth, I'm currently repeating another test this time using 0.125M KOH (so far at 0.5A constant current). The distance-dependent voltage effect still works, and of course no plating is occurring under these conditions.

I got a few times in a row measurements similar to the "after a while" numbers I posted earlier, i.e. approximately:

0.1 mm = 460 mV

0.2 mm = 42 mV

0.3 mm = did not work

However when voltage at 0.1mm dropped to about 150 mV I couldn't manage to measure anything at 0.2 mm. If the signal only proportionally decreased over time, I would have expected to measure values around 10 mV. Again, take this information with a pinch of salt since the mica sheets may have some variations, and results may change depending on consistency of measurements/plates and sheet location and so on. I observed a similar behavior earlier on, though.

Stevenson suggested a kind of EM radiation which seems more likely than He4 i think.

Now expecting a pseudo nuclear reaction is relevant in the context of great loading pressures as Mc Kubre had demonstrated.

Or regarding the surface events way, light is the trigger, as demonstrated Cravens by lasers.

Also a question what could be the magic behind your He4, the hydrogen shrinkage as nkodama proposed or the always fashion Holmlid ? other ?

Quote from matt

I thought I'd see whether I could extract an energy for the hypothesised radiation from this data... assuming alpha particles.

In the absence of a more reliable text on range of alpha particles in air (I'll do some more digging on that later) I found this lecture and on slide 19 they show this image:

If I use 0.3mm = 0.03cm as the range and then rearrange the formula then I get an energy of 0.2 MeV.

If I use 0.2mm = 0.02cm as the range and then rearrange the formula then I get an energy of 0.16 MeV.

I also thought I'd try and find a sort of mean free path for the radiation in air using a simple exponential attenuation model, i.e:

Voltage at some distance = Voltage at zero distance X exp (- distance / mean free path)

I will write this more compactly as:

V = V0 e^(- D/L)

We have two readings so a lovely pair of simultaneous equations to solve 🤓 :

624 = V0 e^( - 0.1 / L) ------- eq 1

315 = V0 e^( - 0.2 / L) ------- eq 2

Dividing eq 1 by eq 2 we get:

1.98 = e^( -0.1 / L) / e^(-0.2 / L) = e^ (0.1 / L) ---- eq 3

logging both sides of eq 3 gives

log(1.98) = 0.1 / L and so:

mean free path L = 0.1 / log(1.98) = 0.14mm

I'm not sure how to reconcile this analysis with the "EDIT: After a while" numbers, but I thought it was an interesting exercise to do anyway.

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