Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

Quote from Frogfall

...Conversely, i suppose the charged molecules might be able to migrate through the porous paper, and reduce the potential difference....

....If the ferrocerium rod is kept well away from other objects (except for its red lead to the meter), and the black lead is simply connected to ground (i.e. without the carbon electrode) is there still a potential dif Usually if there is no 'free passage' between working electrode and counter electrode there is no voltage.

Usually if there is no 'free passage' between working electrode and counter electrode there is no voltage. I use nylon fly-screen about 0.5MM thick or a couple of pieces of paper between electrodes and see a voltage. If there is direct contact it is a short circuit effect - voltage drops to zero but then recovers often over a moment or two. With this particular material recovery from a brief contact is almost instantaneous, and remains so even after a dozen or more trials.

Ferrocerium is an outlier compared with the behaviour of other LEC materials in some way I don't understand- but it has shown me in the past that it is a very good cold fusion fuel with a considerable appetite for hydrogen.

As to your other question about earthing, I have not tried it with ferrocerium, but have with other materials. Normally you need a counter-electrode (which can be connected to earth - done that)- but this is such an oddity that maybe it will show the 'sound of one hand clapping.

Thanks Alan Smith

I was just wondering if the ferrocerium has such a strong tendency to oxidise (albeit slowly if not freshly struck) that potential chemical effects are swamping anything else that you are trying to see.

Quote from Frogfall

I was just wondering if the ferrocerium has such a strong tendency to oxidise (albeit slowly if not freshly struck) that potential chemical effects are swamping anything else that you are trying to see.

It's possible - it's an oddity for sure.

ETA I have considered the oxidation thing of course- cerium-zinc batteries work well with almost any electrolyte - but if that is the cause why does it require a glass separator rather than a dry paper one to produce a voltage?

Hi all!

Yesterday I made a test using a PWM modulated current during co-deposition. The duty cycle was set to 10%, frequency 100 Hz, so the current was ON for 1 ms, OFF for 9 ms. I set the voltage in order to obtain the exact average current I usually applied. Using these settings, the voltage was about 3-4x higher than usual and the peak current was theoretically 10x the usual average current.

The deposition process was apparently not affected (as for dynamics and results), and also the final "activity" of the LEC was more or less the usual one (slightly lower). So a higher pulsating current with this frequency and duration do not affect the activity.

Alan Smith

Ferrocerium is an outlier compared with the behaviour of other LEC materials in some way I don't understand- but it has shown me in the past that it is a very good cold fusion fuel with a considerable appetite for hydrogen.

My question is: what kind of way is commondly used to fill ferrocerium ?

Then does this way tend to "compress hydrogen" inside ferrocerium lattice ?

To me , it could be exactly the reverse, if a matter is easily loaded with hydrogen that should mean it doesn't exist a real compression.

For example in the Pd case, we needed a very right loading to see xsh for example, this very high loading stretching this smooth lattice.

I expect that is is the same about ferrocerium.. too smooth.

Quote from Cydonia

My question is: what kind of way is commondly used to fill ferrocerium ?

Then does this way tend to "compress hydrogen" inside ferrocerium lattice ?

To me , it could be exactly the reverse, if a matter is easily loaded with hydrogen that should mean it doesn't exist a real compression.

For example in the Pd case, we needed a very right loading to see xsh for example, this very high loading stretching this smooth lattice.

I expect that is is the same about ferrocerium.. too smooth.

This paper (extract only) shows that pure cerium, once cleaned of its oxide film absorbs hydrogen at room temperature.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/j100791a030

The case of ferrocerium is more complex, since it typically contains:- Iron 20.8%, Cerium 41.8% Neodymium 4.4% Praseodymium 4.4% Magnesium 4.4% Lanthanum 24.2%. The iron and the magnesium are present as oxides to strengthen the material, thus making ferrocerium a metal-rich ceramic. The situation is complicated because different manufacturers use different versions of the recipe. Looking on the web you can see that some kinds of ferrocerium are called 'soft' which produce showers of sparks when scraped, others are 'hard' which produce fewer but hotter sparks. I suspect the soft kind contain more metal and less oxides of Fe and Mg.

As this material is sold for lighting fires when camping etc, it is not surprising that there is little info to be found about electrolysys. What definitely happens though is that the hard ceramic becomes flaky and fragile, and the surface becomes covered in black oxides - presumably iron - which quickly hydrolyse in the electrolyte to make it cloudy and rusty brown in colour.

Above- the swollen oxide covered cathode after 3 hours electrolysis

Below- the tank on action showing the rusty-colour electrolyte after the first hour or so running at around 3.5V 1W. The white object you can see is the stirrer.

My own interest in ferrocerium (also known as 'mischmetal' came from two things- a comment by Martin Fleischmann that he though it a very interesting material to work with and secondly a report in conversation with a chemistry professor from Padua (I think - it was a few years ago) who told me about a spontaneous melt-down, explosion, and fire in a fume cabinet caused by electrolysing ferrocerium in heavy water that led to him being banned from the lab for a long period. He couldn't understand how it could have happened without it being LENR.

Here's another picture of an electrolysed ferrocerium rod producing a voltage when separated from a zinc plate with a glass microscope slide. It must be an artefact, but I am not sure what it is yet.

ETA- It occurs to me that ferrocerium might be hot enough to darken an X-ray film through the plastic film...I should do this.

But consider this- almost all the lanthanides love to ad/absorb hydrogen, and like other hydrogen loving materials are often pyrophoric- they can spontaneously heat up and ignite when exposed to air as fine powders. This list includes non-lanthanides like Raney Nickel, calcium, Lithium, nano-Boron, SmCo magnet powder and more. All of them are potentially LENR fuels or fuel ingredients. It may include Aluminium too -see below - at the request of a well-known experimenter I am electrolysing an Al plate -it's at the lab, I'll check it out on Monday - it may have dissolved by then.

Sorry my self translator doing something wrong i corrected.

About lanthanides, you related, Biberian has done experiments in the past with an alloy of alumina and lanthanum.

For me, it was probably the most relevant experience he had in his entire life.

However at high temperature.

In fact, for me, I expected the ceramic use to "compress" hydrogen to be the best, along with.. conductive ceramics (to load hydrogen).

I haven't researched this in depth but one can find high temperature conductive ceramics I think or by a special alloy (ferrocerium) that you were expecting.

Why ceramic? because this is the stiffest compound, before that there is high nickel (martensitic) stainless steel.

I also think that best H loading remains the use of a potential.

Again lanthanum means often Perovskite lattice, a kind of a double structures fitted into them with opposites charges more close.

This is why it's used for a piezoelectric behavior. Probably a good way to ignite a discharge directly inside a space with a lot of hydrogen, EVO ?

This one is also interesting.

Ferrocerium is a reasonable conductor, the larger of the two pieces I have is around 15 cmms long and has end-to-end conductivity of around 330 Ohms.

Quote from Alan Smith

Usually if there is no 'free passage' between working electrode and counter electrode there is no voltage. I use nylon fly-screen about 0.5MM thick or a couple of pieces of paper between electrodes and see a voltage. If there is direct contact it is a short circuit effect - voltage drops to zero but then recovers often over a moment or two.

May I remind you that Voltage/ Current transfer in a conductor or any material is done by spin currents or for a classical picture by electron shell displacements. Electrons in material travel at a speed of 2-3mm/s and cannot explain any effect seen by electricity in a conductor.

So if you take a paper the spin current transporting orbitals on fibers usually are aligned parallel to the paper

hence no voltage transfer may happen. Of course glass will transfer spin currents as it is isotropic = has no preferred direction.

Spin current induced voltage transfer usually is non dissipative what means the overall power generated is 0 = zero. To get real power you need a producing reaction for spin current. E.g. producing H*-H*.

This is the main reason I urge all involve in LEG experiments. Do long time net energy production experiments and carefully watch what happens. E.g. Pelletier effect etc.. Only a net wattage production > all possible galvanic energy production that also involves oxidation of course can give you a final proof that CF happens in the cell.

Quote from Alan Smith

Here's another picture of an electrolysed ferrocerium rod producing a voltage when separated from a zinc plate with a glass microscope slide. It must be an artefact, but I am not sure what it is yet.

Without trying to invent any weird physics to explain this, I'd just like to say that this arrangement looks like it is acting as a simple capacitor (basically a free-form leyden jar). Glass is a good dielectric - and if the rod is somehow developing a negative charge, then placing any conducting plate on the other side of the glass slide will enable the meter to register a voltage.

That is why I previously asked if there was any potential difference between the rod and ground. If there was, then it probably wouldn't register at the same magnitude as the voltage from the glass slide test.

It is possible to place a small radioactive beta emitter on a gold-leaf electroscope, and show the negative charge building up on the sample (it is a classic demonstration). Since you are not using an electroscope, then placing the sample on one side of a thin dielectric, with a conductor (rod or plate) on the other side, should maximise the potential difference seen by the meter.

Of course the charge could possibly be due to some kind of oxidation effect - but if your electrolysis cell has managed to create some short-lived beta-emitting nuclides in (or on) the surface of the rod, then that should be detectable with your x-ray film test (the x-rays will be secondary radiation).

Quote from Frogfall

Glass is a good dielectric - and if the rod is somehow developing a negative charge, then placing any conducting plate on the other side of the glass slide will enable the meter to register a voltage.

I agree- but no other LEC pair of electrodes- and I have built around 20 has ever behaved like this. Anyway, I have ordered some more 'soft' ferrocerium to see what more can be done

Quote from Alan Smith

no other LEC pair of electrodes- and I have built around 20 has ever behaved like this

Sorry for not digging back through the thread (yet) - but were your other LEC electrodes ferrocerium?

From the way you were expecting this one to behave, it certainly does sound like the others electrodes were behaving differently.

With regards to this particular rod, I notice that the bulk of naturally occuring Ce is Ce-140. I know there is no concensus on the LENR process, but if Ce-140 somehow acquires another neutron during electrolysis, to become Ce-141, then that is a beta emitter with a half-life of 32 days.

A month H/L is short enough to see a decline in activity over a number of days...

Sure- I get it.

This is a short update on work so far- it's a draft abstract for a paper I'm presenting at IWAHLM Assisi at the end of the month.

The LEC or 'Lattice Energy Converter' invented and patented by Frank Gordon and Harper Whitehouse is, in its simplest form, a 2 electrode dry cell with modest electrical output. It is unique in that the only conductive medium between the anode and cathode is an ionised gas or vapour. Successful replications of the cell as described by Gordon and Whitehouse have been carried out by this author, Jean Paul Biberian, Antonio di Stefano, Jaques Ruer and others encouraged by its simplicity and replicability. Efforts to increase the LEC’s energy output by orders of magnitude are underway in the USA, UK, and EU. LEC research suggests that it requires the wet co-deposition of Pd or Fe with a hydrogen isotope onto the surface of a working electrode. When dried and placed in close proximity to but not touching a counter-electrode, which may be of almost any metal, a very persistent voltage, typically up to 500-800mV is immediately measureable. This phenomenon is visible in air, hydrogen and other gases and vapours, and is presumed to be caused by the working electrode ionising the gas-space between the electrodes. It does not work in a vacuum environment. Exploring the parameter space has shown that co-deposition is not an absolute requirement, and that a broad range of other cathode materials which when loaded electrolytically with hydrogen also produce a voltage and behaviour characteristic of a LEC. These materials include nickel, nickel mesh, titanium, ferrocerium, zirconium, samarium, and as powders, terbium, samarium cobalt alloy, and NdFeB alloy, Methods and both positive and null results are described, as are attempts to eliminate artefacts. Error-checking for artefacts was carried out and the methods used explained.

Hi Alan Smith

i hope you will add some datas for comparison for your next italian speech.

For example, i would like to know more about :

Exploring the parameter space has shown that co-deposition is not an absolute requirement

What kind of voltage difference you have seen between co deposition VS other ways ?

Quote from Alan Smith

Sure- I get it.

This is a short update on work so far- it's a draft abstract for a paper I'm presenting at IWAHLM Assisi at the end of the month.

The LEC or 'Lattice Energy Converter' invented and patented by Frank Gordon and Harper Whitehouse is, in its simplest form, a 2 electrode dry cell with modest electrical output. It is unique in that the only conductive medium between the anode and cathode is an ionised gas or vapour. Successful replications of the cell as described by Gordon and Whitehouse have been carried out by this author, Jean Paul Biberian, Antonio di Stefano, Jaques Ruer and others encouraged by its simplicity and replicability. Efforts to increase the LEC’s energy output by orders of magnitude are underway in the USA, UK, and EU. LEC research suggests that it requires the wet co-deposition of Pd or Fe with a hydrogen isotope onto the surface of a working electrode. When dried and placed in close proximity to but not touching a counter-electrode, which may be of almost any metal, a very persistent voltage, typically up to 500-800mV is immediately measureable. This phenomenon is visible in air, hydrogen and other gases and vapours, and is presumed to be caused by the working electrode ionising the gas-space between the electrodes. It does not work in a vacuum environment. Exploring the parameter space has shown that co-deposition is not an absolute requirement, and that a broad range of other cathode materials which when loaded electrolytically with hydrogen also produce a voltage and behaviour characteristic of a LEC. These materials include nickel, nickel mesh, titanium, ferrocerium, zirconium, samarium, and as powders, terbium, samarium cobalt alloy, and NdFeB alloy, Methods and both positive and null results are described, as are attempts to eliminate artefacts. Error-checking for artefacts was carried out and the methods used explained.

Quote from Cydonia

i hope you will add some datas for comparison for your next italian speech.

Sure- I am compiling a table - there are lots of results to report..

More on ferrocerium - this is the 'hard' firestarter after 48 hours electrolysis in a water K2CO3 electrolyte at a 2 volt overpotential and 1W power. It was then rinsed in distilled water, wiped dry with a paper towel and air-dried for 24 hours, Counter-electrode is Zinc and the spacers are thick-wall silicon rubber tube.

Sadly after another 24 hours the voltage was down to 429mV, and at 48 hours 120mV although there were no readily visible signs of surface deterioration despite the iron content.

This is a re-run of the terbium chips in K2CO3 electrolyte. 48 hours electrolysis, 1.3v overpotential and 1W average power. This is 'still damp', just out of the tank. This is a more complex system, far from ideal, and there may be a lot going on. The terbium is sitting on a circular brass electrode inside a stainless steel cup in the bottom of the beaker it was electrolysed in K2Cow/DW. 1.3V however is remarkable. It's currently drying at 60C which will certainly change things a lot.

ETA- and so it did - the final voltage measured at room temperature after 3 hours at 60C is 600mV -

Here's another look at work function in potential electrode metals. This is aluminium as working electrode and an aluminium block as counter-electrode, so very small WF difference.. The electrolyte was K2CO3 and the tank-tiime 48 hours with a zinc anode. The electrode was air-dried for 24 hours. Still some voltage, but I have a feeling that to get a good performance from Al it might need co-dep.