The LEC has been exposed to several state of the art detectors ibcluding cryo-cooled systems at Los Alamos National Labs by an expert. No conclusive results. Is that commercial enough?
I would like to know more please.
Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop
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I would like to know more please.
Did you watch The discussion panel video? There’s discussed at some point by the replicator of the LEC that works there.
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@Martellino
Here's a somewhat beaten-up nickel mesh electrode that has been sitting on the bench for over a week supported n a lab-stand just visible on the edge of the picture and about 4 mm away from a zinc counter electrode. Is this enough separation do you think
Well, Alan Smith , I am always amazed at your patience with complainers, but taking the time to conclusively put to rest the possibility of “hydrogen spillover” as a potential source of voltage is a really effective way to end the complaints. Wholeheartedly thanks for you!!!
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"Complainers" ... if anything it is disconcerting that such a test has never been carried out by anyone until today, 17-09-2022. Wouldn't that make proving and verifying the effect much easier? It removes several variables and sources of error.
As was said, this was not a concern. Plenty of other evidence supports the main hypothesis, your hydrogen spillover idea wasn’t even on the map precisely because of this. Again, thanks for bringing it up, was noted, considered of lesser importance, and only due to your annoying insistence, Alan Smith was gentle enough to show your concern was unwarranted, as he already had said.
Don’t take this personal, we do enjoy being challenged, what we do not enjoy is being pushed to do things at the pace that non experimenters think of them, which is always faster, because is several orders of magnitude easier.
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And as I wrote above, the spillover was a thrown away hypothesis, replaceable with any other that foresees errors caused by indirect contact between the electrodes, and easily falsifiable with a 5-minute test similar to that of Alan Smith photographed a few messages above.
No, sorry but I am not at all convinced by the explanation that all this was expected. Jed Rothwell was not even aware that the LEC effect could be observed without a closed cell. How many experiments have NOT been done on this by other people (maybe even the original authors) because preparing a closed cell "takes time", understandably?
Again, you are welcome to propose alternative explanations. But not welcome to demand others do stuff at the pace you demand it be done.
The fact that JedRothwell was unaware that the cells work in open air was a surprise to me also, but I don’t hold it against him as he is looking at so many stuff at any given time that is easy to miss stuff.
In fact, we are proud at LENR-forum that we have been a real contribution to the development of the LEC by increasing public awareness of it and attracting talent to its replication, and also because it was our very own Alan Smith who did the first experiments with flat plates and saw success quickly.
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And as I wrote above, the spillover was a thrown away hypothesis, replaceable with any other that foresees errors caused by indirect contact between the electrodes, and easily falsifiable with a 5-minute test similar to that of Alan Smith photographed a few messages above.
No, sorry but I am not at all convinced by the explanation that all this was expected. Jed Rothwell was not even aware that the LEC effect could be observed without a closed cell. How many experiments have NOT been done on this by other people (maybe even the original authors) because preparing a closed cell "takes time", understandably?It's only a 5 minute test if you have everything to hand. Also, @Jed Rothwell is not an experimenter or a scientist. He is a science communicator and the creator and keeper of the LENR-canr library of papers and a respected member of this forum and the LENR world at large. So you should forgive him for being a little behind the curve at times,
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Alan Smith , I was looking for a previous comment on this but I can’t find if you told us if the nickel mesh is co deposited with Pd or simply electrolyzed. I am thinking of ease of replication, those 480 mV look impressive in open air.
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Alan Smith , I was looking for a previous comment on this but I can’t find if you told us if the nickel mesh is co deposited with Pd or simply electrolyzed. I am thinking of ease of replication, those 480 mV look impressive in open air.
No co-dep, in this case 48 hours electrolysis in K2CO3 and DW electrolyte. About 1 week before this 'quickie' today.
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The nickel mesh is actually the type made for battery electrodes, Aluminium sheet makes a good counter electrode, foil is difficult to handle. That's about it.
12.0US $ |Porous nickel foam/Lithium battery, electrode catalyst carrier, gold absorption filter foam metal material|Flanges| - AliExpressSmarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.comwww.aliexpress.comETA- I used a carbon rod anode- hence no metal on metal co-dep.
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No co-dep, in this case 48 hours electrolysis in K2CO3 and DW electrolyte. About 1 week before this 'quickie' today.
That’s really interesting. The need for co deposition is what largely refrained many to attempt a replication (included me). This is a bit less complicated to try, and Nickel mesh is much easier to come by. Did you had it from previous Mizuno replication attempts?. Or in other words, can you point us where to source the kind of mesh you are using?
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Did you watch The discussion panel video? There’s discussed at some point by the replicator of the LEC that works there.
I did watch the panel video and had forgotten the discussion of radiation detection. Having re-watched, I think it is fair to say that no one has measured radiation from a treated electrode when using commercial equipment .
I think this is a significant gap. Why have no such results been reported?
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I did watch the panel video and had forgotten the discussion of radiation detection. Having re-watched, I think it is fair to say that no one has measured radiation from a treated electrode when using commercial equipment .
I think this is a significant gap. Why have no such results been reported?
Well, this is precisely the big question mark, isn’t it? We are clearly watching an effect that is consistent with ionization of gas, even stronger than what an Americium sample can generate, and yet it has not been possible to detect that radiation as of any kind known. This is the beauty of this, we are on uncharted waters.
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Or in other words, can you point us where to source the kind of mesh you are using?
Not Mizuno-style woven mesh- this looks more like felted nickel wire.
12.0US $ |Porous nickel foam/Lithium battery, electrode catalyst carrier, gold absorption filter foam metal material|Flanges| - AliExpressSmarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.comwww.aliexpress.com -
Not Mizuno-style woven mesh- this looks more like felted nickel wire.
Thanks! Is like a foam, it’s rather cheap, too! Compared To the USD 450 for the sheet of Tb, 11 bucks is really cheap.
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The electrolyte of choice for my 'serious' experiments is potassium carbonate since it is not too agressive- pick the wrong thing and your cathode can dissolve. Make a saturated carbonate solution at room temperature, then dilute to around 25% with distilled water. Aim to get your electrode spacing so that you are over 2V and drawing about 1W. You should see a lot of hydrogen bubbles. The carbon rod anodes I am using are 12mm in diameter and 12cms long. By adjusting how much of the anode is submerged you have a second way to control the voltage/current if you don't have a controllable psu to hand.
ETA- 48 hours in the tank, rinse, pat dry with a paper towel, dry in an oven at around 60 for 1 hour max.
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The electrolyte of choice for my 'serious' experiments is potassium carbonate since it is not too agressive- pick the wrong thing and your cathode can dissolve. Make a saturated carbonate solution at room temperature, then dilute to around 25% with distilled water. Aim to get your electrode spacing so that you are over 2V and drawing about 1W. You should see a lot of hydrogen bubbles. The carbon rod anodes I am using are 12mm in diameter and 12cms long. By adjusting how much of the anode is submerged you have a second way to control the voltage/current if you don't have a controllable psu to hand.
ETA- 48 hours in the tank, rinse, pat dry with a paper towel, dry in an oven at around 60 for 1 hour max.
Thanks for the hints Alan Smith , this is really helpful. Doing a replication of the LEC with these materials and with your protocol has less ways to screw things up.
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Such testing should have been the top priority since these conditions of use were found to be acceptable. Almost two years since the opening of the thread and no one has ever thought about it?
There are a bunch of serious scientist working on the LEC, and all excluded in the early stages the kind of effect you hypothesized, based on data and available experimental evidence. It is clear that you have not read all the available documentation, do not know in details the experiments that have been carried out and probably you do not even make the effort of extrapolating the answer to your question from the documented data. So, it is ok suggesting a test, but also to reasoning a bit on the answers that have been given to you. Also, each researcher has its own roadmap and priority, your concept of "priority", as an external (and distract) observer, worth almost nothing in this context. Moreover, insistence is not welcome here, as well as in any community. So, if you feel you can add something constructive to the discussion, just trim a little bit your interaction style and keep interacting, otherwise don't expect that people takes into account what you say any more.
So: RFI as mechanism. (I mean this loosely - it could be 50Hz).
How is that ruled out?As described in my report, yes, at least in my experiments it has been ruled out conclusively. I describe a number of precautions in order to avoid to pick up electromagnetic interference (synchronizing measurements with mains frequency, using integrating instruments and not true RMS, averaging results, using <1 MOhm load, checking operating conditions with a control devices, and so on). In any cases, even without any precautions, the impact of this kind of interference is one or two order of magnitude smaller than the measured signal.
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Perhaps you have an explanation about how charged ions stop transiting through the dielectric spacers under a vacuum?
We know from Mills early experiments that the H*-H* reaction can produce excess charge = current.
Look for "High-power-density catalyst induced hydrino transition (CIHT) electrochemical cell". Paywalled
To claim that any LEC is LENR will need one of the following:
- proof of transmutations - not just surface ==> full body analysis as e.g. Brillouin did.
- characteristic radiation
- >100% energy output
Without this it's just speculation.
All material show a kind of polarization as the basic transport of electricity is spin currents not electrons or ions.
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@Martellino , Frogfall
I admit that I have not analyzed all the videos second by second or read the various articles as a lawyer would do
Read then as a scientist would, rather than a lawyer and you will understand the hundreds of hours (and years) of testing and exploration that Gordon and Whitehouse and colleagues have done.
Moreover, not only would it be much more convincing as already mentioned to demonstrate the effect, but verifying the electrodes in the air at a distance of millimeters-centimeters would allow to more efficiently identify their level of activity, or in other words to find more quickly which material or procedure to prepare it works best.
That is precisely what I am doing and will report on. Worth noting that a lot of experiemtns have used co-deposited Fe plating, and unless kept in a hydrogen environment it quickly corrodes and becomes useless- hence the tubes.
For Frogfall - this might answer an earlier query of yours - from my notes months ago referring to a co-deposited iron working electrode and a large aluminium block counter-electrode. I had forgotten about it.
If you like a puzzle, how about this? An isolated working electrode connected to earth shows zero voltage. A similarly isolated counter-electrode connected to earth also shows no voltage (and this is a very good instrumentation earth being a large copper plate buried in wet soil and not part of the grid supply). Put the two electrodes together with an insulating spacer like nylon mesh and you get a voltage, small at first, but steadily rising, presumably as the gas -space between electrodes becomes ionised.
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Thanks Alan Smith - that was was indeed an interesting answer.
By the way, with regards to a post further up the thread:
Here's a somewhat beaten-up nickel mesh electrode that has been sitting on the bench for over a week supported n a lab-stand just visible on the edge of the picture and about 4 mm away from a zinc counter electrode
I see the nickel mesh is connected to the black, and the zinc plate to the red lead. Am I correct in seeing no negative sign in front of the meter reading? (the image is slightly obscured by a light refection) i.e. does the nickel register as negative in relation to the zinc? Cheers.
