George Egely's Magic Wand

So I have this challenge to readers: forget for a moment everything about LENR, especially about Z-pinch condensed plasmoids.

Consider this simple circuit in plain air, room temperature:

(Flyback primary circuit not drawn up, it is a 1 transistor circuit)

And these results:

Using power-electronics and plasma physics principles, please explain:

1. What charges the capacitor bank back up in 2nd and 3rd waveform occasionally, with respect to 1st baseline waveform?

2. Why does C1 fails and becomes open circuit? C1 = C2 = Wima MKP10 1.5nF 2500Vdc. Pulse repetition rate varies, on average is in higher tens/ lower hundreds Hz range. Input DC power to flyback converter is 1-1.5W.

Quote from Tibi.fusion

So I have this challenge to readers: forget for a moment everything about LENR, especially about Z-pinch condensed plasmoids.

Consider this simple circuit in plain air, room temperature:

(Flyback primary circuit not drawn up, it is a 1 transistor circuit)

And these results:

Using power-electronics and plasma physics principles, please explain:

1. What charges the capacitor bank back up in 2nd and 3rd waveform occasionally, with respect to 1st baseline waveform?

2. Why does C1 fails and becomes open circuit? C1 = C2 = Wima MKP10 1.5nF 2500Vdc. Pulse repetition rate varies, on average is in higher tens/ lower hundreds Hz range. Input DC power to flyback converter is 1-1.5W.

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If I interpret your scope pictures correctly, then the first high to low transient is about 50 nS and the Voltage step 1750 Volt.

So your change is 1750/.05 = 35000 V/usec

Assuming they have exactly the same value, this is 17500 V/usec per capacitor

The Wima capacitors for 1.5 nF and 2500 Volt are rated for a maximum of 11500 V/usec.

Could that then maybe the reason why they are failing ?

IELayout (lenr-forum.com)

David Nagel extensively covers Egley's apparatus starting at page 17.

Quote from Tibi.fusion

Using power-electronics and plasma physics principles, please explain:

1. What charges the capacitor bank back up in 2nd and 3rd waveform occasionally, with respect to 1st baseline waveform?

It is an interesting phenomenon: the teeth are part of the same curve, with a single time constant (it is a DC voltage) that is repeatedly "broken" by secondary disharges (that can occur at lower voltage since the gas has been pre-ionized by the first disharce). To investigate the origin of this phenomenon you should measure the also the currents around the capacitors.

EDIT: Tibi.fusion if you are able to generate this phenomenon at will (almost partially), it would be interesting to observe the voltage across R1, the spark gap and the R3. This can provide some information on the location where the apparent "excess voltage" is generated. You can just place there the probe, once at a time, and comparing the waveform between the "normal" condition and the "exotic" one (no need to acquire also the capacitor voltage at the same time, the difference should be visible). The voltage across R1 is important because it will reveal if the extra-energy comes from the flyback, due to some recoil phenomenon, inductive effect, change in impedance or whatever: that would be not so anomalous. If the energy comes from the right side of the circuit, things become more intriguing...
BTW, C1 failing in an open circuit is probably due to the current pulse that tears and finally breakes the internal leads connections. The usual failure mode of capacitors due to high voltage is by short circuit.

Quote from LDM

The Wima capacitors for 1.5 nF and 2500 Volt are rated for a maximum of 11500 V/usec.

Bingo! A progressive failure by eating/melting away sections of the metalized foil electrode could also explain the second/third charging pulse? I'm thinking about the mechanisms of it, considering the parasitic inductance of load resistor (I did mention it was wire-wound), and I've also seen by adding small inductance I could increase the number of pulses. The second pulse is never delayed from the main discharge event, so local energy storages in parasitics coupled with possibility of local short-circuits and healings inside the film capacitor or local eliminations of subsections of capacitor due to melting of connection to collector electrode at the end could cause the observed effect?
https://www.kemet.com/en/us/te…citors-and-inductors.html

I've run a bunch of tests on day of big-bada-boom, trying a quick succession of testing many hypothesis. I did not however save pictures/oscilloscopes due to the speed and exploratory nature of the activity.

I remember I could not see the effect with WIMA FKP1 2n2 2kV (>50kV/us rated). Could not see effect with 3k3 load resistor (slower, non damaging dV/dt and current density?). I could not see effect with only non-inductive 1R0 resistor, but yes with tiny inductance added. I did see something with ~2pF capacitor, but I think it was rather a recharge effect via flyback and locally formed ions could discharge again from lower gap voltage, quote:

Quote from Stevenson

has been pre-ionized by the first disharce

I did run similar tests today and saved waveforms (no H2 / O2 involvement this time). 3 types of capacitors used. The only one that has suffered damage (reduced it's capacitance) showed the additional pulses...

Only a zip upload for now, interpretation tomorrow. Thanks for the analysis so far!

Interpretation of previous zip file contents:

Oscilloscope print1-2 shows passive probe calibrations.

Ch1: 10:1 Rigol PVP2150 150MHz probe used with short ground wire for current measurement through non inductive shunt resistor

Ch3: 100:1 Hantek T3100 100Mhz 2kVdc probe used to confirm HV readings

Ch4: 500:1 DIY extended Rigol probe intended for use up to approx. 6kVdc nominal

Print3-8 are taken with WIMA FKP1 2n2 2kVdc higher pulse current capable capacitor. No "exotic" effect here, display persist shows no second pulse.

You can see the red-yellow capacitor, the white 5W wirewound load resistor, the non inductive TO-220 1R shunt, the added inductor of 3 turns of copper wire, the probes.

Print9-11 are taken with 2 unknown brand (ceramic?) capacitors in series of value 2n2 2kV unmounted from old PC power supply used as Y filter capacitors at mains end. No "exotic" effect here, display persist shows no second pulse.

Print12-28 are taken with the effect producing self-damaging MKP10 1n5 2.5kVdc capacitor.

Initial capacitance value measured is ~1n5:

(the multimeter shows 55pF with open leads since the alkaline "wash" )

-12 shows with trigger on positive pulse width between 50ns - 3us that the effect on display persistence is repetitive, the second pulse arrives at random time from first.

-13,14 shows zoomed in, zoomed out views of discharge repetition rate, which is also random, discharge voltage is also random.

-15,16 I reconnected the forgotten current probe and tweaked the voltage and air-gap, the discharge repetition rate has evened out

-17 shows the trigger settings identified the mysterious event

-18 shows the following discharge event is normal, no second pulse

-19,20 shows captured events on persist screen

-21,22 shows the second discharge happens where he decides, the capacitor voltage remains the same until that point

-23 is a more zoomed in capture, so you can see the current and voltage phase relation

-24 I reduced the flyback power to lower the voltage and the degradation rate of the capacitor

-25-28 zooming in to show not all discharge events are special

Final capacitance is decreased to <1nF:

What really happens? I hear you ask..

Taking a close look, I think the resonant network formed by capacitor and parasitic inductances for some reason occasionally interrupts the flow of current.

The final discharge seems to be delayed, even though the voltage is present. The voltage remains there until the gap decides to conduct current again.

Legend: Ch1: current through load resistor measured as voltage drop through series 1R non inductive shunt resistor, Ch3-4: voltage across capacitor.

Something makes the ions not carry the current anymore to conclude the oscillation and complete discharge of capacitor. What could it be?

Is it related to damage occurring inside the capacitor, manipulating the magnetic/electric fields around it or manipulating the voltage across the capacitor (but I don't have the GHz bandwidth to capture it)? The slow time constant charging effect is due to flyback continuously feeding the minute current into capacitor.

I'm hesitant to probe anywhere else, I don't want induced voltages damaging probes.

Bottom line: many signs point to the "exotic" effect having more to do with capacitor internal damage due to improper use than with CPs. Am I right?

Quote from Tibi.fusion

Bottom line: many signs point to the "exotic" effect having more to do with capacitor internal damage due to improper use than with CPs. Am I right?

Let's hope not. Is there anther capacitor type you could try?

Tibi.fusion, If the yellow track in the last figure is current on the load resistor, it appears as the arc is suddenly interrupted. A momentary internal short circuit (discharge) on the capacitor could explain this, but the voltage on the capacitor should decrease abruptly and this do not happen. BTW, the current interruption is very fast, much faster than the other time constants and frequencies involved in the circuit: something very fast happening in the arc or in the capacitor seems to cause this. I cannot figure out if it is "exotic" or not.

Quote from Alan Smith

Is there anther capacitor type you could try?

I tried many types, as mentioned before:

1. metal electrode, polypropylene film dielectric capacitor (high pulse current capable)

2. metallized electrode polypropylene film dielectric capacitor (moderate pulse current capable)

3. unknown electrode construction, unknown ceramic dielectric capacitor (usually high pulse current capable)

4. C0G dielectric (class 1) ceramic capacitor (high pulse current capable)

Only (2.) the "weaker" capacitor exhibited damage and the weird effect resembling wolf teeth. The current amplitude or dV/dt rating has been exceeded, so damage is NORMAL, and waveform is not necessarily due to CP formation. Voltage and current waveforms don't suggest energy being added to the system. Operating other capacitors at higher/lower voltages and higher/lower peak currents showed nothing (using similar spark gap in plain atmosphere).

It was time to move on from this intermediary result towards testing Egely's claims with a setup resembling more to his device, albeit full details are not disclosed; COP claim is not credible and accurate replication is not possible from my perspective. Anyhow, it is a hobby-grade guesswork after all, with high hopes (like fishing).

So what's the progress, you might ask?

Not very much lately... After the electrolysis unit explosion I felt no rush to do experiments, rather, spent most of the few hours per week reading (Shoulders, Egely, Matsumoto, Klimov, etc.). I figured I will need H2 gas at some point, so I did take action on a new smaller, simpler electrolysis unit, which is partially complete:

This will have a small volume, which enables it to be placed inside a container for eventuality of leaking or RUD. I also acquired a couple of the cheapest J321 Geiger-Muller tube based meters, thinking a CP that allegedly can penetrate thick metal walls and ionize matter would have a good chance of showing up, just in case. I also do have a 5kg+, 6cm thick wall iron cylinder to surround the test viles, also just in case.

On the side of reading the available literature, it is still unclear to me from a pragmatic standpoint how to create CPs efficiently:

Quote from Tibi.fusion

What drives more the formation of those negative charge clusters which suppose to catalyze nuclear reactions, the voltage or current? Voltage dictates the accelerating force, and effects their speed, and the current density dictates their formation number and density? Increasing both their speed and their number, will increase a chance of interacting with a H proton? Thus a 20kV probe would be a good future investment to explore the higher voltage region? How about effect on voltage vs. current on electrode erosion?

There are reports of low current plasma devices (Egely, Correa, Dufour) and high amplitude pulsed current devices (Bostick, Klimov). Electrolysis, cavitation, lattice loading, etc. devices put aside.

Shoulders in his book showed a device that I guess could be operated at either low or high peak current:

-no current limiting resistor here:

-however resistor is present here:

Thanks to Bob Greenyer, we have Hathaway's confirmation of similar device being used that was connected to a beefy Blumlein circuit. That could supply a very short duration, very high peak current. No mention of series, current limiting resistor here, so we don't know.

Note the anode and cathode polarity not coinciding with Shoulders.

I was under the impression CPs are mostly formed by electrons and are created at cathode and move towards the anode. In Klimov's device, the cathode (not anode) shows a glow of dense CP formation? The reason is the long distance to anode, thus the CPs formed at cathode don't really make it to the anode, rather they ionize the swirling gas near their formation?

Many unknowns in my head about voltage, current peak, current density, current duration, materials, surrounding fuels, ions, gases, dynamics of surroundings (static matter like ceramics/gases, moving dust/sputtered metal/ions, swirling gas/ions, etc.)...

And every source of information to be taken with a pinch of salt. Why?

• Feb 9th 2023

Quote from Tibi.fusion

The case can be made outside the LENR field, in many other "conventional" industries, that individuals/groups publish papers in a different direction from the real stuff to guide and trick the competition into failure.

One pattern is visible though: plasma, transients, high voltage, matter to chew upon as fuel.

For current, I'd bet my money on high current peaks and high current density as well to help kick-start the process. Not a necessity though, and certainly not necessarily of long duration.

Anybody else done some analysis on how to efficiently create CPs?

Quote from Stevenson

BTW, the current interruption is very fast,

It happens at zero cross of current...

Thank you for all your information and efforts. I'm having a bit of a clear-out in my lab at the moment. Drop me a line via the forum mail and tell me if you need anything. I may have it.

Quote from Tibi.fusion

So I have this challenge to readers: forget for a moment everything about LENR, especially about Z-pinch condensed plasmoids.

Consider this simple circuit in plain air, room temperature:

(Flyback primary circuit not drawn up, it is a 1 transistor circuit)

And these results:

Using power-electronics and plasma physics principles, please explain:

1. What charges the capacitor bank back up in 2nd and 3rd waveform occasionally, with respect to 1st baseline waveform?

2. Why does C1 fails and becomes open circuit? C1 = C2 = Wima MKP10 1.5nF 2500Vdc. Pulse repetition rate varies, on average is in higher tens/ lower hundreds Hz range. Input DC power to flyback converter is 1-1.5W.

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What is the point of the C1 and C2 being in series? Why not use a single capacitor of value (C1 + C2) / 2? It would be equivalent.

Quote

What charges the capacitor bank back up in 2nd and 3rd waveform occasionally, with respect to 1st baseline waveform?

Those look like transmission-line reflections. It seems that your load isn't impedance-matched to the impedance of your transmission-line. To understand transmission-lines consider that an EM wave with an electric field of 10 V travelling through a transmission-line that has an impedance of 10 Ohms will appear to travel with a current of 1 A. In fact, the impedance of a transmission line is usually simplified to sqrt(L / C). Capacitance is related to permittivity of a dielectric, that simply tells us how well it polarized electrically, while the inductance is related to permeability of a dielectric, which tells us how well that medium magnetizes in response to a magnetic field. So we can say that the impedance of a transmission line tells us what the ratio of the electric field is to the magnetic field.

If your load does not have the same impedance as your transmission-line, you will have reflections, to understand why you have to remember that the 10 V EM wave will travel with 1 A of current through an impedance of 10 Ohms. If this same EM wave were now to attempt to pass through a resistive load of 20 Ohms, it would be unable to push 1 A of current through it as it would require an electric field of 20 V. Logically at this junction the same amount of current must be passing through. Further since this junction is infinitely small, it should have the same amount of voltage. We can intuitively now sense that there will be a reflection since you cannot have 1 A of current coming in and 0.5 A of current coming out, you will also note that since the reflection reduces the incoming current, it will also reduce the outcoming current, so some equilibrium must be found.

So we can write V1(+) + V1(-) = V2, I1(+) + I1(-) = I2. Further we can rewrite the voltages as function of the impedance (Z), so V1(+) = I1(+) * Z1, V1(-) = I1(-) * Z1, V2 = I2 * Z2. From there you will be able to derive the following equations:

Our reflected current: I1(-) = (Z1 - Z2)/(Z1 + Z2) * I1(+)

Our passing current: I2 = 2 * Z1 / (Z1 - Z2) * I1(+)

I don't know what your transmission line's characteristic impedance is, so I can't calculate what your reflections should be, but if you find it out you can see if the reflections match what you're seeing. A spark gap should be pretty hard to control the impedance of, so that is likely your first source of reflections, and depending if there is enough time your load could also be reflecting.

Quote

Why does C1 fails and becomes open circuit? C1 = C2 = Wima MKP10 1.5nF 2500Vdc. Pulse repetition rate varies, on average is in higher tens/ lower hundreds Hz range. Input DC power to flyback converter is 1-1.5W.

Not sure what you mean by it.

Quote from LeckerenSirupwaffeln

What is the point of the C1 and C2 being in series?

Simply to make a 5kVdc rated capacitor bank (this enabled a wider spark gap, that does not have to be tweaked so delicately to achieve a stable, low discharge voltage).

Quote from LeckerenSirupwaffeln

Those look like transmission-line reflections.

Yes! I also added series inductors deliberately to have more oscillations. Argument: no one ever suggested the discharge in Egely's approach needs to be from a capacitor, through a carefully curated transmission line that is matched to whatever the impedance of flasma and load resistor might be. In fact, if you look at Egely's way of connecting up everything with long wires and occasionally crocodile clips, you can say there is no intent of delivering a controlled current shape through a transmission line and to avoid reflections. Rather the opposite could be told: those big wire loops can act like an inductor, the discharge electrodes can act like a capacitor, the series resistor is the oscillation dampener. It is rather a series RLC oscillator than anything else. I also suspect the aluminium oxide on electrode surface acts like a dielectric barrier, and in relatively high gas pressures, multiple filaments of discharge leave the cathode (DBD). Some of those filaments could condense into plasmoids. There might be interactions between individual CPs, which would enable growth to the extent of interacting with the hydrogen and produce fusion products. Thus having reflections and plasma oscillations at high frequency could be beneficial in promoting the effect. This is one the hypothesis I'd like to spend time on testing. Others involve >100A peak currents, where careful geometries and impedance matching are critical.

Quote from LeckerenSirupwaffeln

Not sure what you mean by it.

Never mind, the riddle of the capacitor failure is solved: the current exceeds the maximum capability of capacitor construction. The thin metallization layer over the dielectric film gradually melts away due to exceeded current density, this can also form local short circuits that further melt away larger sections. On a macro level a gradual decrease of capacitance value is observed. If I keep the current under the spec. then it doesn't get damaged.

On the topic of high current density plasma discharges, do you think any of the following has anything to do with CPs?

1.

My take: high chance of CP interacting with water. Argument: with no water the enegy out from one discharge seems to be way lower (i.e. doesn't pop off the plastic cap). For your argument of plasma disassociating H2O then igniting it, my counter argument is this: from an energetic standpoint a plasma delivering it's energy to the surrounding air, or the plasma delivering it's energy to break the covalent bond of water, then recombine that H2 and O2 gas to remake the bond and release back that energy, it should be the same, with similar results (i.e. similar pressure levels, similar light radiation).

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

There was another video in which a fairly big aluminium cap was shot horizontally into a cardboard box from a cylinder, the energy source was a spark discharge in air at bottom of cylinder. Can't find it now...

7.

Frogfall, what sense do you make of these from an energy balance standpoint?

Note: from https://condensed-plasmoids.com/history.html

Egely mentioned in his devices hydrogen gas and water vapor...

Why an RLC circuit if a simple LC is enough.. LC circuit which is the magnetron principle.

Quote from Tibi.fusion

Simply to make a 5kVdc rated capacitor bank (this enabled a wider spark gap, that does not have to be tweaked so delicately to achieve a stable, low discharge voltage).

Yes! I also added series inductors deliberately to have more oscillations. Argument: no one ever suggested the discharge in Egely's approach needs to be from a capacitor, through a carefully curated transmission line that is matched to whatever the impedance of flasma and load resistor might be. In fact, if you look at Egely's way of connecting up everything with long wires and occasionally crocodile clips, you can say there is no intent of delivering a controlled current shape through a transmission line and to avoid reflections. Rather the opposite could be told: those big wire loops can act like an inductor, the discharge electrodes can act like a capacitor, the series resistor is the oscillation dampener. It is rather a series RLC oscillator than anything else. I also suspect the aluminium oxide on electrode surface acts like a dielectric barrier, and in relatively high gas pressures, multiple filaments of discharge leave the cathode (DBD). Some of those filaments could condense into plasmoids. There might be interactions between individual CPs, which would enable growth to the extent of interacting with the hydrogen and produce fusion products. Thus having reflections and plasma oscillations at high frequency could be beneficial in promoting the effect. This is one the hypothesis I'd like to spend time on testing. Others involve >100A peak currents, where careful geometries and impedance matching are critical.

Never mind, the riddle of the capacitor failure is solved: the current exceeds the maximum capability of capacitor construction. The thin metallization layer over the dielectric film gradually melts away due to exceeded current density, this can also form local short circuits that further melt away larger sections. On a macro level a gradual decrease of capacitance value is observed. If I keep the current under the spec. then it doesn't get damaged.

Quote from Tibi.fusion

what sense do you make of these from an energy balance standpoint?

Sense? I can see no sense - yet

You referred Peter Graneau but he was best known on his works on capillarity fusion, as some others.. Water and plasmoids weren't involved at all.

Quote from Tibi.fusion

On the topic of high current density plasma discharges, do you think any of the following has anything to do with CPs?

1.

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My take: high chance of CP interacting with water. Argument: with no water the enegy out from one discharge seems to be way lower (i.e. doesn't pop off the plastic cap). For your argument of plasma disassociating H2O then igniting it, my counter argument is this: from an energetic standpoint a plasma delivering it's energy to the surrounding air, or the plasma delivering it's energy to break the covalent bond of water, then recombine that H2 and O2 gas to remake the bond and release back that energy, it should be the same, with similar results (i.e. similar pressure levels, similar light radiation).

2.

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There was another video in which a fairly big aluminium cap was shot horizontally into a cardboard box from a cylinder, the energy source was a spark discharge in air at bottom of cylinder. Can't find it now...

7.

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Frogfall, what sense do you make of these from an energy balance standpoint?

Note: from https://condensed-plasmoids.com/history.html

Egely mentioned in his devices hydrogen gas and water vapor...

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Quote from Tibi.fusion

Note the anode and cathode polarity not coinciding with Shoulders.

Bob Greenyer messaged me about this- he said "You can let TIBI know that I saw that George had got the polarity wrong in his diagram when I was editing the video and it should be the other way round."

Don't forget that when liquid water turns to steam (gaseous water) there is a 3000x volumetric expansion. If that happens during an electrical discharge, it will sound like a detonation.

Where the extra energy comes from is the $64,000 question...

Quote from Cydonia

Why an RLC circuit if a simple LC is enough.. LC circuit which is the magnetron principle.

My thoughts on using a resistor is:

- for Ken Shoulder's EV launcher, I suspect he was looking into what is the minimum input energy required to create one EV/EVO/CP that he could carefully examine (instead of a bunch that exhibit other properties?). Using a resistor is a simple means of controlling the instantaneous power of the plasma discharge.

- for Egely, I suspect using a current limiting resistor has to do with damaging the electrode surface and whatever is deposited there, which I suspect is consedered to be a key for a prolonged operation with excess output.