The LENR Induced Fission Thread

Quote from Frogfall

Daniel_G there is an old video clip, on Bob Rohner's website, showing Joe Papp "filling the buckets" with Thorium powder. It was in the workshop at Papp's house - and Tom was there watching the process. Although Papp was using some kind of glove box, the rest of the conditions were certainly not "radiologically safe". Back in my nuclear days, if I had seen that I would have had the entire workshop closed down, sealed for later decontamination, and had the staff hauled-up in front of a safety and disciplinary panel. n.b. The guys in the Thorium lab, at the site I was at, even had to have their urine collected for analysis - in case of possible ingestion (ingestion of alpha emitters can lead to various cancers, as you probably know).

As I mentioned in another thread, a while back, the use of an alpha emitter in an aluminium vessel, in contact with the gas, is a curious feature of Papp's engine. This would be one method of spraying secondary neutrons into the gas - so how did he learn of the technique?

Post

RE: Model Development and Programming Forum

A little aside about Joe Papp, and the source of his ideas…

I always find it interesting to look at how, or where, any particular researcher or inventor could have gathered the information that led to their ideas. Nowadays lots of information is available via a few keystrokes, but in the pre-internet days you really had to have some direct sources of information – either through an area of work, higher education, general publications, personal experimentation, or via friends/relatives.

Joe Papp…

Frogfall

Jan 13th 2023

This is at least one piece of evidence that Papp was attempting to promote some kind of nuclear process within the cylinders of the engine. The problem is, however, that coming from Papp it could have just been another bit of diversionary showmanship.

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Frogfall I think the answer can be found here: https://app.aws.org/technical/facts/FACT-27.pdf

Thorium is often used to make the plasma arc easier to start in TIG welding. This would make perfect sense here and probably a lot safer if Bob used thoriated tungsten electrodes rather than the thorium buckets that Papp used.

Quote from GRMattson

@Gannediy

I don't do videos. They take too much time and convey too little information. Internet data costs money.

Papp ran his engine around 800 RPM, or one power stroke every one thirteenth second. The explosions were much quicker than that. Your experiment may be producing some such reactions with the resulting creation of high energy neutrons. According to my calculations those neutrons have initial velocities approaching one fifth the speed of light. You need to look for such neutrons. GBW has a good review of the challenges of such on this thread.

This is a potentially dangerous reaction. Proceed accordingly. In spite of what was said it's likely that some neutrons are absorbed by the other Noble gasses resulting in low level radioactivity. Consider Papp for thirty years or so simply exhausting the used gasses into the lab and breathing them. He died at age 56 of colon cancer.🤠

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It might not be a coincidence that Bob’s brother also had cancer.

Quote from Daniel_G

probably a lot safer if Bob used thoriated tungsten electrodes

He actually did. My late friend Richie was working with him and put all that together.

Quote from Daniel_G

Thorium is often used to make the plasma arc easier to start in TIG welding.

Yes, but it also means the arc is more difficult to quench. That might create problems - as this isn't welding...

The aluminium buckets are a neutron source - a thoriated TIG rod won't do the same job.

Quote from Curbina

He was deeply troubled

Not as troubled as his victims...

link to 2016 news story

Quote from Frogfall

Not as troubled as his victims...

https://beforeitsnews.com/alte…derage-girls-3364690.html

Never meant as a defense. I was shocked.

Quote from Frogfall

Yes, but it also means the arc is more difficult to quench. That might create problems - as this isn't welding...

The aluminium buckets are a neutron source - a thoriated TIG rod won't do the same job.

Agreed the time scales are much faster in an engine application but there is no perceptible delay in arc quenching during TIG welding and Alan says this is what they actually are doing.

Quote from Daniel_G

Agreed the time scales are much faster in an engine application but there is no perceptible delay in arc quenching during TIG welding and Alan says this is what they actually are doing.

"Perception" is relative. The resultant waveforms really need to be viewed on an oscilloscope.

Don't forget that Joseph Papp died in 1989 - leaving behind a number of puzzling mysteries. Anyone attempting to replicate the performance of his devices now is having to rely on Cargo Cult engineering, due to the lack of any firmly established theoretical design principles.

But then TIG electrodes are cheap - and it's probably easy to swap them for different tests.

After Tom Rohner passed away, his brother Bob was approached by an autodidact theoretician who had an idea for a "rotary" version of a Papp-style plasma engine. Dannel Roberts has been applying and reapplying for patents, since 2012, covering various versions of the device - the last in 2019. None appear to have made it through to granting stage.

In the text of these patents he does try to cover all eventualities for what might be happening inside the device, which suggests he has no real idea of what is actually happening. E.g.:

Quote

To make the engine run , an electrical charge can be introduced into the gases and can produce a discharge that is similar to lightning . That discharge causes an increase in pressure, which can cause the engine to spin. The discharge could be a plasma burst, a small fission release in the gases, a small fusion release in the gases or a small release of atomic energy from the gases or could be any combination of these.

And as for the gases in the engine:

Quote

The gases that can be used within the energy burst ignition chamber can be regular air. Higher levels of nitrogen in the gas can be used. In some embodiments, only nitrogen is present in the ignition chamber. In other embodiments, air-free and/or oxygen-free environments are desired. A noble gas mixture and/or a halogen can also be used. A high content of chlorine gas has been seen to be effective. Uranium and/or plutonium gases can also be used. In some embodiments, a noble gas mixture and/or a halogen can be used while being air-free and/or oxygen-free. Uranium and/or plutonium gases can also be used while being air-free and/or oxygen-free .

A decade ago Dannel Roberts could be seen in this video demonstrating the engine (which Bob Rohner built for him). As you can see, he is physically protected by a special neutron shield, made from acrylic.

Quote from GRMattson

I'd like to see some Equations about this gravitational thing. People just dance around Electromagnetic fields producing gravity. Maybe Stefan could help. He likes to write equations even if no one understands them .

EVO Theory - a new paper from Graham Hubler. - General LENR Talks - LENR Forum (lenr-forum.com) This link should take you to post #16 and hence a derivation of electro-gravity and why it is 42 orders of magnitude stronger than universal gravity.

Electro-gravity is more complicated than just a change in the strength of the gravitational constant. However, just as energies of electrons in a solid approach banded states, complexes of materials attracted by electro-gravity approach the simple replacement of the gravitation constant. Hence, EVOs model well as in post #51. Planetoids large enough to be seen (microscopic ball lightening) will consume elements of one kind and deposit elements of another. Bob Greenyer has multiple reports of this type of thing from multiple experiments and experimenters. The following diagram by Matsumoto was first to explain this as an effect of extreme gravity.

However, the small planetoids typical of most LENR experiments don't develop wormholes. For example, in Santilli's patent application "Method and apparatus for intermediate controlled fusion processes" the mass balance is so accountable that stoichiometry can be applied. In the main reaction Deuterium and Oxygen combine to produce Hydrogen and Nitrogen. In the side reaction deuterium fuses to oxygen. Which oxygen is consumed in the main reaction. The actual transmutation steps follow the alpha cycle used by massive stars which are not blackholes.

Speculation on electro-gravity on large scale are as follows:

1)The actual amount of dark matter is small because electro-gravity constant is 42 orders of magnitude larger than universal gravity. The electric universe people go so far as to suggest that there is no dark matter rather just a higher electron density of space. The most accepted models of cosmology accept the existence of dark matter but recognize that the basis for modified gravity needs work. Hence, something in between both current models. Electro-gravity as a function of electron density of space should do that.

2) Galaxies should not form within 200 million years of the big bang, however with second stronger form of gravity that would be possible.

3) Blackhole appear to get more massive without consuming matter, however if the kind of gravity they are composed of converts from universal to electro-gravity that would be possible.

Quote from Drgenek

EVO Theory - a new paper from Graham Hubler. - General LENR Talks - LENR Forum (lenr-forum.com) This link should take you to post #16 and hence a derivation of electro-gravity and why it is 42 orders of magnitude stronger than universal gravity.

42 is the "Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything" in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books. It was computed by Deep Thought, the second greatest computer ever.^[1] The descendants of Deep Thought's creators are upset by the numeric nature of the answer, not understanding what to do with it or what to tell the people who had commissioned the 7.5-million year project.^[2]

When asked to produce The Ultimate Question to go with the answer "42", Deep Thought admits it is not capable of computing that itself, but that it can help to design an even more powerful computer, which can. This new computer will incorporate living beings into the "computational matrix" and will run for ten million years. It is the planet Earth.^[3]

Quote from GRMattson

Drgenek

Try focusing on the purpose of this thread, which is about the possibility of inducing fission by creating low energy effects. You fell into the trap of coming up with a wild convoluted process for a problem that doesn't exist. Apparently, there is a human tendency to reject out of hand new ideas. Then the mind wanders. The poster boy for that was Richard Feynman. In his world there was no possibility that Papp's machine was doing exactly what he saw and what Papp said.

If you take a look at the online tool that is available for asessing the likelyhood of a nuclear reaction to happen, the one based on data gathered by Parkhomov and built into a sercheable through query database, you will see that it contains fusion and fission reactions. LENR fission is thought to happen albeit as these are never a single event but a dynamic and multibody continuum, is hard to tell when in happens and where the energy goes.

Fission Reactions - data provided by Dr. Alexander Parkhomov

Quote from GRMattson

Try focusing on the purpose of this thread, which is about the possibility of inducing fission by creating low energy effects. You fell into the trap of coming up with a wild convoluted process for a problem that doesn't exist.

There are no low energy effects. Reaction whether chemical or nuclear occur because the distribution of energies of reactants includes energies sufficient for activation. The activation energies for nuclear reaction are in the MeV range. That distribution is possible because of electro-gravity. This is not a guess. These energies have been measured as is seen here.

Ed Storms Amazing results data fitting - Physics - LENR Forum (lenr-forum.com)

Both fusion and fusion occur because the compositions of matter which due to electro-gravity cause a distribution of energy which enable nuclear reactions. The application of a laser to nanoparticle in the following article illustrates the point. Simakin et al speculate water provides the neutron source for fission.

[0906.4268] Initiation of nuclear reactions under laser irradiation of Au nanoparticles in the presence of Thorium aqua-ions (arxiv.org)

Electro-gravity is neither wild nor convoluted. It is an unfortunate result of the combination of quantum mechanics and relativity. We can't create truth we just discover it.

Why do find the production of nano-size stars so offensive? Why not reason it through and accept it as the simple solution that it is? Why are you looking for something more complicated? The data fits the model what more do we need?

Quote from Drgenek

Electro-gravity is more complicated than just a change in the strength of the gravitational constant. However, just as energies of electrons in a solid approach banded states, complexes of materials attracted by electro-gravity approach the simple replacement of the gravitation constant. Hence, EVOs model well as in post #51. Planetoids large enough to be seen (microscopic ball lightening) will consume elements of one kind and deposit elements of another. Bob Greenyer has multiple reports of this type of thing from multiple experiments and experimenters. The following diagram by Matsumoto was first to explain this as an effect of extreme gravity.

However, the small planetoids typical of most LENR experiments don't develop wormholes. For example, in Santilli's patent application "Method and apparatus for intermediate controlled fusion processes" the mass balance is so accountable that stoichiometry can be applied. In the main reaction Deuterium and Oxygen combine to produce Hydrogen and Nitrogen. In the side reaction deuterium fuses to oxygen. Which oxygen is consumed in the main reaction. The actual transmutation steps follow the alpha cycle used by massive stars which are not blackholes.

Speculation on electro-gravity on large scale are as follows:

1)The actual amount of dark matter is small because electro-gravity constant is 42 orders of magnitude larger than universal gravity. The electric universe people go so far as to suggest that there is no dark matter rather just a higher electron density of space. The most accepted models of cosmology accept the existence of dark matter but recognize that the basis for modified gravity needs work. Hence, something in between both current models. Electro-gravity as a function of electron density of space should do that.

2) Galaxies should not form within 200 million years of the big bang, however with second stronger form of gravity that would be possible.

3) Blackhole appear to get more massive without consuming matter, however if the kind of gravity they are composed of converts from universal to electro-gravity that would be possible.

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I really liked electrogravity for my experiments. If I connect a three-phase rectifier to a three-phase motor and give it energy, I can get electrogravity. https://iccf-25.syskonf.pl/con…_v1_en_r7375620021777.pdf

I haven't reached that yet, the capacitor broke, so I want to repeat this experience, what else can you say about electrogravity.

I don't think that axil say more B... than others i expect rather less ..

Quote from GRMattson

Drgenek

So, how do you explain the spontaneous fission of say a thorium atom? Does a Mev gamma ray or high energy particle just happen to hit it at right time and place? Or has nature set up a sensitivity to low energy effects that cause the atom to kick out an alpha particle? If there is a possibility of an isotope of an element becoming another isotope of that element by emitting a neutron I am not aware of any physics principle that says that would necessarily require a high input of energy.

I'm just wondering, are you like Axil on a ego trip by throwing extraneous stuff into a thread to mess it up or do you just hate new ideas that you didn't think of.

Why the community tends to bless this kind of self-proclaimed god, what did he offer more than Gennadiy Tarassenko for example?

Quote from Curbina

If you take a look at the online tool that is available for asessing the likelyhood of a nuclear reaction to happen, the one based on data gathered by Parkhomov and built into a sercheable through query database, you will see that it contains fusion and fission reactions. LENR fission is thought to happen albeit as these are never a single event but a dynamic and multibody continuum, is hard to tell when in happens and where the energy goes.

https://www.nanosoft.co.nz/Fission.php