The perpetual “is LENR even real” argument thread.

  • That is (all but) incorrect. Heat leakage from Seebeck envelope calorimeter is negligible. It is so small you have difficulty detecting it. That is why they are called "envelope" calorimeters. Bomb calorimeter types also have negligible heat losses

    Jed, you are being argumentative here.


    • Bomb calorimeters - irrelevant since cannot be used for the type of experiments we are talking about
    • Seebeck calorimeters - they have an equivalent to leakage - which is uneven heat detection from different heat detectors.
    • Whether leakage is negligible is something to be considered on a case-by-case basis not assumed.
    • Other than Storms's work - where measurement inequality remains an issue because only partially explored (possibly leakage too) - in fact Ed's results are low enough that many things including unknown unknowns remain issues (none of which is in any way the fault of his careful experimentation) - who has positive good quality LENR results from a Seebeck calorimeter?


    You are fond of saying that the factor that matters to determine how convincing results are is magnitude of results / calculated calorimeter error after calibration.


    That is normally true. For experiments where cell conditions are potentially different between calibration and active runs in ways that cannot easily be measure that assumption (that calibration works) breaks down. The real factor is


    magnitude of results / (calculated calibration error after calibration + possible erors introduced by differences between calibration and active runs)


    The latter factor is impossible to measure exactly and is typically bounded (which is fine). However those bounds are made on the basis of assumptions which need case-by-case examination. In particular because electrolysis LENR experiments are rather unusual - compared with normal calorimetry - the assumptions that highly experienced competent calorimetrist normally make may not hold. You need both a highly experienced competent calorimetrist and somone willing to question assumptions looking beyond wat normally happens to potential unusual anomalies - unexpected ATER being one such example.


    Why look so carefully for anomalies when it is not normally done?


    Ummm.... Because for everyone except the LENR community the results are anomalous. Once you accept that LENR is likely to happen - it becomes the preferred solution to a large class of anomalies. It fits almost anything well because its predictions (until we have a more definite underlying theory) are so non-specific.


    Therein lies part of the "psychological bias" we are talking about. And that non-specificity is what all those of good will who want to find high quality evidence for LENR should be concerned about. It must, if LENR is real - be possible to find some more specific results from a combination of better defining the theory or better characterising experiments.


    For as long as CF effects remain so non-specific LENR is not a good scientific hypothesis. Some other hypothesis (e.g. - they are caused by alien scientists who are simulating the universe and want to explore how much unclassifiable anomalies are recognised by earth scientists in order to better understand what level of "contrary to physical laws" influence they can do on earth without being detected) might be more specific.


    There are many strongly accepted physical mechanisms which give rise to non-specific results from some experiments. There are no accepted physical mechanisms that make no specific predictions.


    That does not stop LENR from being a valid hypothesis - just not one that scientists will be very enthusiastic about.


    My personal negativity about LENR comes from the fact that it remains so ill-defined. If folks here were advocating one variety of electrolytic fusion (as was expected at the time of F&P's experiments) then we would have a narrower theory making better predictions. Every time those predictions are negative (e.g. to take the first big issue at that time lack of easily detectable high energy particles) the class of underlying possible mechanisms gets larger, less clear, and more radically different from what we currently have.


    Against that we have some positives. A definite theory (have not yet seen a preferred one) of NAE nuclear activity that generates only alpha particles would surely be testable by electrolytic experiments designed so that alpha detectors could be in close proximity to the NAEs. The CR39 alpha claims could be folded into this both quantitatively and qualitatively and a coherent predictive theory would start to emerge.


    That (example) positive comes with a caveat. When it is definite enough to be a good hypothesis it will also be definite enough to be shot down if its specific testable predictions are found to be wrong.


    Scientists without psychological bias - both experimental and theoretical - can look for such hypotheses and the definite predictions they make.

  • Scientists without psychological bias - both experimental and theoretical - can look for such hypotheses and the definite predictions they make.

    Did you ever look for mental help??

    Test Results - Brillouin Energy


    It looks like you cannot live with reality. This is a severe disorder and Beer is not the correct therapy.


    Brillouin is approaching a LENR COP of at least 3 with its Nickel/H process. Also Mills sees COP's between 2.5 and 4 depending on runtime load. But he only produces H*-H* so far or just 496eV for a pair...

  • psychological bias.


    The same psychology that makes people attracted to (or distrustful of) conspiracy theories will tend to make them more attracted to (or distrustful of) LENR as a mechanism for a collection of anomalies.


    • In both cases we have things that can't be explained and an explanation which is psychologically attractive, but lacks definite predictions (or at least definite predictions that have ever been observed).
    • In both cases we have mainstream though versus small groups of unconventional thinkers.


    Now, conspiracies exist, so conspiracy theories are sometimes true. But not, for attractive conspiracy theories, often. For fringe science you do not need an (unlikely) conspiracy of scientists - you just need nearly all scientists to be so invested in one way of thinking that they cannot see something new. Plenty of examples here from history when we did not have such a great diversity of scientific exploration and publication as now. And those historic examples do not last forever - in the end a better hypothesis will triumph due (in all cases?) to its making definite predictions that are found true.


    I annoy many here (from a psychological perspective) because temperamentally I am not fond of conspiracy theories. I see them as inherently unlikely.


    How much we should derive strong probability from "joining the dots" is a balance, and sane people can have different views. If I excluded all possibility that those diverse claimed LENR effects are nuclear in origin I would be unbalanced. Many here claim that having looked carefully at the effects - not to see nuclear reactions as the only plausible solution - is also unbalanced. I disagree. And argue that in generalities and specifics as on other posts here.


    I will very happily become an LENR fan (or at least hopeful fan) as soon as some theory is advocated that is predictive enough to be falsifiable. Turning this round - as Jed does - an saying that I have to provide and exact known (and therefore falsifiable) error mechanism for every experiment with anomalous excess heat results is absurd.

  • Naive, pseudoscientific, condescending and frankly, self indulgent, clumsy pop-psych and a waste of everybody's time.

    I seem to have hit a nerve here but I am not sure why.


    I understand with waste of time. If everyone here has the fixed idea that LENR effects are caused by nuclear reactions any explanation of the case for skepticism is a waste of time.


    My post may have been obvious - but I don't understand why it would be any of the other things you say. I was expanding on the idea of psychological bias introduced above. In an entirely neutral way. And explaining my own bias. Conspiracy theories are sometimes true - and as I said above LENR has the same "joining the dots" attraction without the demerit of requiring any conscious conspiracy. Though I should point out a few here claim there is such a conspiracy (of hot fusion scientists - I have even incorrectly been labelled one of them) to discredit LENR.


    the way you comport yourself and interact here

    I am comparing my posts against others that do not attract your ire along those 4 adjectives. I can't say that I am more than the average for any of them, nor can you provide credible evidence of that I think.


    I can only conclude that you are angry at the waste of time - but you can keep away from this one thread?

  • I seem to have hit a nerve here but I am not sure why.


    I understand with waste of time. If everyone here has the fixed idea that LENR effects are caused by nuclear reactions any explanation of the case for skepticism is a waste of time.


    My post may have been obvious - but I don't understand why it would be any of the other things you say. I was expanding on the idea of psychological bias introduced above. In an entirely neutral way. And explaining my own bias. Conspiracy theories are sometimes true - and as I said above LENR has the same "joining the dots" attraction without the demerit of requiring any conscious conspiracy. Though I should point out a few here claim there is such a conspiracy (of hot fusion scientists - I have even incorrectly been labelled one of them) to discredit LENR.

    I apologise for speaking so strongly.


    There's nothing neutral about suggesting that people who accept LENR are of the same ilk as people who believe in Qanon, or that the moon landing was faked, or that climate change is a hoax.


    We're talking about the interpretation of highly technical experimental results; couched in a somewhat unique sociology and history. It's an academic disagreement over the interpretation of evidence.


    That's fundamentally different to the kind of thing that conspiracy theorists are up to.


    People Drawn to Conspiracy Theories Share a Cluster of Psychological Features
    Baseless theories threaten our safety and democracy. It turns out that specific emotions make people prone to such thinking
    www.scientificamerican.com


    I can only conclude that you are angry at the waste of time - but you can keep away from this one thread?

    No. It's the comparison. I found it insulting. I'm going to delete my post. We can do without its bluntness - and rudeness.

  • I will very happily become an LENR fan (or at least hopeful fan) as soon as some theory is advocated that is predictive enough to be falsifiable. Turning this round - as Jed does - an saying that I have to provide and exact known (and therefore falsifiable) error mechanism for every experiment with anomalous excess heat results is absurd.

    Put your action where your words are. You argue correctly that marginal results could be misleading. You advocate for a theory that is predictive enough to be falsifiable. Yet you remain focused on experiments with marginal results as if nothing else exists. You are preventing truthful examination of experiments which effectively argue for fusion outside the Lawson criterion by distraction to experiments, LENR, that you can effectively argue against.


    R. Santilli claimed fusion outside the Lawson criterion. That is falsifiable since the amount of transmutation was not marginal but large enough for mass balance and stoichiometry. So, I did the due diligence. Further, data derived balance nuclear equations and mass balance indicate the simple method of AquaFuel is producing a gaseous fuel where about 2/3 of the energy content of the fuel comes from nuclear reactions. Further, the origin of that fuel energy can't be attributed to chemical composition, as detailed in a report about AquaFuel by Santilli years ago. I have done the analysis to check the truthfulness of that statement.


    Maybe LENR as conceived by Storms could become something if he got enough money, but I don't believe it, since his own data more effectively argues my claims than his. In another thread for that purpose, I present a model which is falsifiable. In due time I will show how Storms data provides a falsifiable basis for prediction of fusion outside the Lawson criterion.

  • Bomb calorimeters - irrelevant since cannot be used for the type of experiments we are talking about

    Incorrect as always. They have been used. I used one myself.

    Seebeck calorimeters - they have an equivalent to leakage - which is uneven heat detection from different heat detectors.

    Incorrect. The leakage is so small and so evenly diffused you cannot detect it, even when you deliberately put a resistance heater near one surface. To be double sure of that, Storms and others install fans in the chamber to mix the air. FURTHERMORE, as I said, you can eliminate any possible heat leak effects by assuming that 100% of the heat is recovered. Actually, a small percent of the heat is not recovered of course, which means you will always underestimate actual excess heat. You cannot overestimate it, so the heat leak error is ruled out. Most researchers do this.

    Whether leakage is negligible is something to be considered on a case-by-case basis not assumed.

    It is always measured on a case by case basis. Nothing is "assumed." It is usually estimated from first principle physics. You could easily verify this by reading the papers, but you will never do that. Plus, as I said, you fail to acknowledge that most researchers going back to J. P. Joule assumed 100% heat recovery, thus eliminating any possible error.

    Other than Storms's work - where measurement inequality remains an issue because only partially explored (possibly leakage too) - in fact Ed's results are low enough that many things including unknown unknowns remain issues (none of which is in any way the fault of his careful experimentation) - who has positive good quality LENR results from a Seebeck calorimeter?

    Other than Storms work there are all the others who used Seebeck calorimeters. You can do your own homework to find them. I could spoon feed you the titles but you wouldn't read them, so I won't bother.

  • Are you going to read and comment on the paper that Jed suggested, and that I linked for you earlier in the thread?

    Never. No skeptic ever reads anything. Or if they do, they won't admit it, and they will not acknowledge what the papers say. For example, many skeptics claim that excess heat is an artifact of recombination. They never acknowledge that researchers often assume 100% recombination and do not count excess heat as real until it exceeds the full recombination upper limit.


    THH is the only skeptic I know who pretends the excess heat might be caused by a heat leak error. Heat leak errors are easy to measure, and easy to model on first principles, and most people eliminate them by assuming 100% recovery (no heat leaks) so this entire argument is absurd. Perhaps that is why other skeptics do not make it.


    You can only make such arguments when you adamantly refuse to read anything or acknowledge anything that Storms, or I, or anyone else tells you. For example when I say an error in calorimetry at China Lake cannot magically change helium detectors at U. Texas and two other labs, you can be sure that THH will never, under any circumstances address that issue or say, "that's true, isn't it?" That is so fundamental to the scientific method that any intelligent 10-year-old kid would realize it is true, but THH absolutely refuses to admit it.

  • Quote from @Jed :


    No, this is not a "judgement call." It is a technical discussion. It must be grounded in the laws of physics and textbooks on calorimetry. No judgement is involved; only facts that have been firmly established for 150 years, and which are the basis of the laws of thermodynamics.


    Then why, if by applying the established methods and theories of thermodynamics it was shown by my calculations that the temperatures of the Lugano dummy run where correct are you still maintaining that they where wrong ?

    You seem only wanting to apply those laws selectively if its suits your opinion.

    So I challange you to consult an expert in heat transfer and prove that my calculations where not correct.

  • US formers as him, Storms, Mc Kubre or Hagelstein never unsticked themselve from their P&F god and the royal PdD path.. That 's all 8)

  • US formers as him, Storms, Mc Kubre or Hagelstein never unsticked themselve from their P&F god and the royal PdD path.. That 's all 8)


    I recently had the opportunity to look at the data of an experimenter which used a Rossi like process.

    My estimate. based on that data was that there was a COP of at least10.


    No need for precise calometry!

  • Then why, if by applying the established methods and theories of thermodynamics it was shown by my calculations that the temperatures of the Lugano dummy run where correct are you still maintaining that they where wrong ?

    Subsequent tests indicated these results were wrong. I do not have enough information to judge why that might be. Someone told me they measured emissivity incorrectly. That would explain it.

  • Subsequent tests indicated these results were wrong. I do not have enough information to judge why that might be. Someone told me they measured emissivity incorrectly. That would explain it.

    No that would not explain it since assuming wrong emissivities goes against what you calculate when applying the laws of thermodynamics..


    That said, I admire all the work you are doing in documenting all the research on LENR.

    Thanks for that !

  • Then why, if by applying the established methods and theories of thermodynamics it was shown by my calculations that the temperatures of the Lugano dummy run where correct are you still maintaining that they where wrong ?

    You seem only wanting to apply those laws selectively if its suits your opinion.

    So I challange you to consult an expert in heat transfer and prove that my calculations where not correct.

    Dummy results were 90% of the measured input

  • Dummy results were 90% of the measured input

    The calculations I showed on this forum showed that for inflated temperatures due to the use of wrong emissivities the result was 86.5% of input.


    For the non inflated case the result was 101.6 % of input.


    An additional check posted on this forum based on a measurement you did showed that the maximum rib temperature must have been near 450 degree C.


    An addition FEM simulation check I did showed me a maximum rib temperature only 0.8 degree C different from the reported maximum temperature.of 461.6 in the report.


    All the above by applying the laws of thermodynamics.

  • 486 W in, 446 W out, per the report.

    (The 7 W attributed to the 12 mm power supply cables was calculated wrong, but is insignificant compared to the overall power input uncertainty).


    A simple cylinder would have been much easier to measure. I was getting quite surprisingly good convection-radiation output agreement with input from experiments. The higher the temperature, generally the closer the calculated radiant power was to the input power. The emissivity can be off a little bit, and the effect is almost insignificant. Big errors in emissivity get really bad results, with calculated radiant power probably logarithmically departing from the true value with increased emissivity error delta.


    The math itself used for calculating power for Lugano was fine. I tested it versus an online calculator, using the report numbers (temp, emissivity, area), and the online calculator values were very close to the values calculated by the Professors. (Usually just slightly higher values in the calculator). This was also useful to make sure the online calculator I was using wasn't giving me nonsense answers.

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