The quickness of the scientific establishment to label LENR as pseudo-science will assuredly come back around to bite. It may take another decade or two, but there will come a day of reckoning. My only lament is that the harshest critics of LENR will mostly be dead by that time.
I've found the same sort of behavior in forums which promote psychic mediums who talk to the dead and similar quackery.
Except that psychic mediums who talk to the dead and similar quackery do not have dozens of institutions and scientists backing the claims, such as with LENR.
The psychology of a skeptopath is much more interesting.
If IH had IP that really worked they would :
1) Gladly pay Rossi so they could start selling BILLIONS in cold fusion reactors!
2) They would start selling cold fusion reactors or lease the IP to manufacturers to build them for them and make billions.
3) Become larger than Apple.
Not if they are incompetent. If you finally get Murray set up with a modified reactor end of 2015 / beginning of 2016, then pull the plug and box everything up after a few months, and deny that Dameron ever had positive results, then 1) you don't start selling BILLIONS in cold fusion reactors, 2) you don't lease the IP to others, and 3) you become the size of about an apple.
Do you think the shareholders of IH/IPH and Cherokee are unhappy with the stonewalling? Because that is who Darden is accountable to, not Rossi, and certainly not us in the peanut gallery.
I think Brad Pitt wouldn't be too happy, because well, he's a cool guy.
But what I know from the evidence available to all on the docket is that Rossi deceived (and likely defrauded) IH in directing all aspects of JM Products, which was clearly created for that purpose. And this behavior is entirely consistent with his long history of extraordinary deception.
And in contrast, there is no evidence (that I am aware of) that IH and IPH are corporate entities created with the explicit purpose to deceive or defraud.
IH deceived by stonewalling the depositions using their various business entities as a shield, by withholding information, and by omission. They were reprimanded by the judge for this behavior, and were ordered to submit to further depositions because of it.
And again the Dameron patent only claims the vessel for use if you had a material for it. It does not patent the material and the vessel. It is useful IF you had some material for it. The paten very clearly avoids patenting the entire ecat device. It may contain in the specs that someone (i.e. Rossi) found it useful and that Rossi had data but it does not claim excess heat or even the heat itself at any level.
True, if not claimed, and the claims not granted, there are no matured rights. Nevertheless, that IH included the >1 COP material in the description section of the patent application speaks to SSC's original point.
I don't see any evidence that IH's multiple corporations were used to deceive in any way.
Then you didn't follow the deposition debacle very closely. Or you did, and are conveniently choosing to forget about it.
How do I know it didn't work - just a few points: (1) fake customer and fake invoices; (2) Rossi created the fake customer, etc. because he knew it didn't work; (3) Rossi's inability to replicate; (4) Penon taking a hike; and (5) no expert stepping up for Rossi giving an expert opinion that it works/worked.
I can understand why you would draw those conclusions based on your legal mind. But each of these contentions has been addressed multiple times from a more scientific and evidence-based purview.
For example, Rossi probably created the customer story to entice IH to get the test underway, as IH were dragging their feet (indeed, IH had no inducement whatsoever to see that the GPT was completed, because all it meant was an $89 million bill--they already had the know-how). By way of another example, there is no evidence on the record of Rossi having an "inability to replicate." In fact, there is significant evidence that IH in fact did replicate with a COP as high as 9.
By way of yet another example, there are a tiny number of scientists (probably less than you can count on one hand) willing to vouch for LENR while put under scrutiny in a court of law. These are not trained expert witnesses. They are scientists who have been made pariahs by the scientific community. They would gain nothing by vouching for Rossi--let alone LENR in such a venue.
I could go on, but you could just click on my username and read my past posts, which will provide you with a plethora of alternative explanations for the evidence that we see.
Just to point something out: What is the purpose behind you forming separate legal entities that don't actually conduct business - to defraud the counterparty, in this case IH. FRAUD and having formed the separate legal entities won't protect you.
Both parties created multiple separate legal entities. There are reasons besides defrauding the counterparty to do so. Listen, I was one of the first to call Rossi out on the JMP ruse and think it will sink his boat before the jury. But if you have carefully followed the evidence as I and others here have, you will discover that IH are nowhere near spotless in this affair.
Well, I'm glad we can agree that Woodford's initial investment was connected with Rossi... I mean they admitted that it was core to their investment. I think we've all seen the evidence for that at this point.
As for any follow-on fundraising efforts, we have less certain evidence that Rossi was at the core. But there is some. We have an Industrial Heat power point slide listed on the official website of the Baishishan national Sino-US Science and Technology International Innovation Park.
Industrial Heat states:
"We believe our initial technology (“the Reactor”) has several advantages:
Generates energy more consistently, on a larger scale and with lower
input costs and higher energy density than other technologies
Creates excess energy between 3 and 20 times the energy required to
operate the device depending on the model of reactor and operating
temperatures at temperatures between 120 and 500 degrees Celsius
Somehow I don't think they were referring to Brillouin. As an amusing side note, these statements were being made to the Chinese almost a year after the alleged "dummy reactor" had supposedly disproved Rossi's e-Cat in Darden's mind.
But seeking investors does not imply that they "accepted" the ERV report. It is very likely that they were seeking support for their other LENR research programs.
I agree with your first sentence. I disagree with your second: there is sufficient evidence on the docket to disprove the theory that the fundraising was primarily for other LENR projects. Rossi was at the core. Woodford admitted it in an email. The valuation document of IH underscores it.
Shane D. ,
I actually agree. Even beyond the term sheet, the agreement was so lopsided in IH's favor when it came to what IH could do with the know-how, and what it had to keep confidential (basically nothing), that the deal was bound to fail from the start. Successful and fruitful deals require carefully balanced and fair agreements from the start, especially when there are large amounts of money on the line. Otherwise, both parties are asking for a dispute, and that is what they both got.
Darden and Vaughn were keen on pointing out in their testimony that they didn't want to set Rossi off, and so tried to play nicely. Why then did they do the one thing that would for sure set Rossi off: begin supporting Rossi's competitors and, in Rossi' mind, possibly sharing his know-how with them? Had IH not been like that, Rossi probably would have been entirely willing to help Murray get his modified reactor to work. Instead, Rossi had lost trust in IH, and said he had to focus on completing the 1 MW year long test. The writing was on the wall. The breakup was inevitable.
Why are you so eager to demonstrate, that any LENR device doesn't work? This is what intrigues me.
I don't think that is what Jed is doing. I think Jed is passionate about LENR and wants to see me356 follow up using MFMP's equipment and test protocols. I see no harm in this, and only upside, whether me356's reactor works or not. The more information available to the world in general, the better.
I get the impression Jed talked with MFMP after me356's test, and they share his sentiments. MFMP is here on LF, and they could say something in me's defense if they wanted. So far though, not a peep out of them going on 8 days now.
BTW, me356 gave the team some fuel ash samples to run...anyone know when will we hear the results?
Bob has released videos, and did back up much of what me356 has been saying, although hinted that there was likely some miscommunication as well.
I have no relation to I.H., but if I did it would be none of your business. I play practically no role in LENR, except as librarian. No one plays any role. Most researchers are dead, and the field is moribund. You can thank Rossi for that, more than anyone else.
Note that whenever Jed denies a relationship with IH, it is in the present tense. When I press him on this, he says it is none of our damn business. I suppose he did have some kind of relationship with IH in the past, maybe as a paid advisor. Why he is so evasive about this with the community is beyond me. Information like this wants to be set free.
Jed demands absolute openness from Me356 but refuses to be so himself.
Not really. (1) Jed is kind of in the category of principals, so he gets a lot of leeway to be peevish. (2) There was this that he wrote prior to what you quoted:
In short, his post doesn't even come close to warrant moving to the playground.
I agree Jed deserves some slack given his stature in the LENR community, but I think his adhoms are lazy: he rarely backs them up with anything substantive.
People who do not see that, such as IH Fanboy and SSC, have no idea what they are talking about. They do not understand grade-school level science, such as the fact that pressure changes the boiling point. You should ignore everything they say.
Unless Jed can back up his assertion with some evidence, even a single post that suggests what he alleges, do you not think this is a comment better suited for the playground?
Rossele - there is no $250M investment from anybody (yet) and your ongoing spewage that R was central to anything much past start-up phase is a trolling lie.
IHFB - same with the added moniker - trolling liar.
You are quick to cry liar. I've found in the course of my life that those who lay such accusations the loudest are projecting the characteristic found within themselves.
I do not think Rossi needs prophets ...... Better if he finds partners or investors, but no one would join his business if he reveals his secrets to the MFMP. I'm sorry IHFanboy, I will never catch this idea!
I said nothing of prophets. Have it your way and Rossi / Leonardo could very well languish for another 10 years. Be more open to the one group (LENR+ community) that could catapult Rossi to success, and get it to mass market in less than 5.
IHFB - you weren't there and you continue to not have the slightest clue what you are posting about. Nothing of Rossi's has worked in the IH era.
I know this is hard for you to accept but the empty reactor had the same performance as the loaded reactor on a side-by-side basis.
And yet IH pressed forward, later landing tens of millions of investment with Woodford, with Rossi's tech core to that investment? Bullocks.
But notice that the Rossi followers never address the obvious question about IP transfer he was paid for.
It appears to me that he transferred the knowledge. Dameron got a COP of 9. He was still running the IH-Rossi-built reactor as late as 2016--the same time Murray was ramping up his testing of his own modified e-Cat. Murray's modified e-Cat apparently didn't work, although he was given little time to build and test it. But the IH-Rossi-built one worked. IH admitted as much. And there are no contemporaneous emails or test reports that state otherwise.
there is no question that if LENR was validated in the eys of mainstream science, it would be an extremely disruptive event. However, it would not be in any respect because of the cheerleading efforts of IH Fanboy, who is the 21st Century analog of a Hyde Park soapbox harranguer.
You know nothing about me, what my capabilities are, what my motivations are, with whom I associate, what forums I frequent, what conferences I attend, what handles I use, my means, ... nothing. And you know precious little about the many other LENR+ enthusiasts. You would be missing the mark by a mile to underestimate the strength of this movement. The Lugano report was downloaded hundreds of thousands of times in a matter of days. Contemplate that.
I'm sorry but I can not really convince myself. First of all, I think it's wrong to talk about "black box" because I guess that to make the E-Cat work, you have to know exactly how to start it and how it is triggered. Consequently, letting someone test the reactor is equivalent to revealing everything that is important and secret. I think Rossi would risk too much. Perhaps it would be facilitated in the ongoing trial, but then he would have to sue everyone who copied his idea. For him it is not enough to be recognized as the moral winner, he wants to collect all the possible fruits of his work.
He is entitled to the fruits of his work, and this would be the straightest path to those fruits. Let's face it, Mr. Rossi is getting on in years. If he wants this to drag out another 5, 10 years, then keep doing what he is doing. If he wants to get from here to fruits in less than 5 years, he ought to consider my promptings. He would have the entire LENR+ community in his corner evangelizing for him. And even if he never sold a single reactor in the open market, he would become very wealthy, from speaking engagements alone.
So I am to understand that the several dozen people who are the mainstay of this website and ECW have the power to influence world markets?
Yes. Because we know how to spread the word.