Quote from Fm1

Jed is full of shit and insults me by calling my beliefs part of the death cult.

Not you. Wyttenbach, and several right-wing politicians and some commentators at Fox News.

You are ignorant and wrong about the science when you say herd immunity cannot be achieved, because it has been achieved. You are wrong about other things, listed above. But as far as I know, you are not opposed to the use of vaccines. The Death Cult members are people who oppose vaccines, masks and other public health measures. Many of them deny there is a pandemic. Some claim the death rate is much lower than reported, when in fact it is much higher, as shown by excess deaths.

Quote from Fm1

You are such a fool, herd imunity is impossible to achieve with a mutating virus and a vaccine that does not prevent iinfection.

You are mistaken. Anyone can see herd immunity has been achieved in the UK and Israel. (Unfortunately they will probably be infected from outside again.) Every expert says that the virus is not mutating quickly, and herd immunity is possible.

The vaccine does prevent infection. There were some questions about the extent of that at first, but it is now firmly established. Obviously, it has to prevent a high infection rate of many cells or it would not work. And, if it did not stop infections, it would not have eliminated the disease in the UK and Israel.

So, your assertions are contrary to plain facts on the ground that anyone can see, and contrary to the expert opinions of people who have been studying virology for decades and the science in entire libraries full of books. It is possible you are right and all these experts and books are wrong, but that is extremely unlikely. If you think you are smarter than all those people, and you think the data from the UK has no meaning, then you are the fool here, not me. Also, you suffer from extreme hubris.

I suggest you take a lesson from the history of cold fusion. In cold fusion, the skeptics all claim they claims they know better than experts. They are sure the physics textbooks, the laws of thermodynamics, peer-reviewed papers, and science going back to 1780 is all wrong, and they are right. They dismiss expertise, which is what you are doing. They dismiss facts, which is what you are doing. These people are all wrong. Completely, utterly wrong, ignorant and unscientific.

Quote from Fm1

Had ivermectin been approved for use last September, there would have been no reason to approve an emergency use vaccine.

It can't be that good. In places where it is being used the pandemic is still sickening and killing many people. From what I have read ivermectin is supposed to be a cure rather than preventive. (Perhaps it is both?) Vaccines are also far better than a cure. Far cheaper, safer and more effective. As you see in the UK and Israel, they eliminate the disease with no need for any other drugs or therapy. Ivermectin is not needed with the vaccines.

Quote from Fm1

Maybe one of our vaccine experts can tell us why you inject a drug into a group of individuals, healthy and with very low chance of infection and transmission. Better life through chemicals??? Insane!!!!

It does not take an expert. Any newspaper gives the reasons: 1. Children are at risk for the disease, including long term effects. 2. Children can spread the disease to others.

I would add: 3. Because many adults are refusing to be vaccinated, without the children we will not achieve herd immunity. A few hundred thousand more people will die without herd immunity. There is no risk to the children so it is best to do this, but I would prefer to see adults step and and do what is right for the community, to stop this disease with herd immunity. Two groups of adults will not take it: Death Cult members and those who have been duped by them; and cowards, who want children to do what they themselves should do.

Quote from RobertBryant

Would that 'we' be all of Georgia or just the royal JR..'we'. ?

First of all, India should go back to masks and social distancing. They held the pandemic at bay with this successfully, until recently. Look at the curves:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/

Second, the entire world should rush vaccines and oxygen to India. Especially the U.S. We have many extras now because unfortunately, the U.S. now has extra vaccines, because so many people do not want them. In Georgia, about a third of the adult population says they will not get vaccinated. The Death Cult is responsible for this. They have blood on their hands.

If sending them ivermectin also helps, by all means do so. It may not help, but it probably will not harm them.

Various questions that have arisen here have clarified in recent news.

In Florida, at least one major cruise ship line wants vaccine passports, but the governor has forbidden them. So, it is industry and customers who want them, as I thought.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/0…ine-florida-desantis.html

Cruise Line Threatens to Skip Florida Ports Over Proof-of-Vaccination Ban

Norwegian Cruise Line plans to require Covid-19 vaccine documentation from its crew members and customers, but Florida recently enacted a law that bars businesses from doing so.

We now know why cases in the Seychelles are increasing, despite the fact that a large fraction of the population was vaccinated. They are using Chinese vaccines. Apparently these do not work well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com…les-vaccines-covid-cases/

The number of deaths in the U.S. is probably far higher than the ~600,000 on record, according to an estimate based on excess deaths in 2020. That is what you would expect for the early months of the pandemic, before there was adequate testing.

http://www.healthdata.org/spec…-reported-covid-19-deaths

Quote from Fm1

many people have died from Covid that didn't have to die because people like you peddle the crap coming from the CDC, NIH, and the FDA.

Incorrect. The CDC, NIH and FDA are telling the truth. They are experts, and they have proven right by the data showing that vaccines eliminated the disease in Israel and elsewhere. Over the last 20 years they made it possible to develop mRNA vaccines, so they saved ~100 million lives. This is the greatest triumph in the history of public health.

Many people have died because of anti-science, anti-vaccine movements -- the Death Cult fanatics who want to kill millions to enhance their own power. Many people have died because of lunatic opposition to masks and case tracking. In the U.S., hundreds of thousands more people died than necessary. This was entirely the fault of Trump and the Death Cult. They alone are to blame. If we had listened to CDC, WHO and others, this would not have happened.

Your views are based on false conspiracy theories, not facts, and not science.

Quote from Fm1

You sir are the problem ,

No, the Death Cult is the problem. They are to blame for everything. Look at countries like Korea and Japan and you will see that is obvious. They never employed ivermectin or any other untested drug, but their cases and deaths per capita were far lower than ours. They used mainly tried-and-true public health measure, such as masks and case tracking.

Quote from RobertBryant

Not moot in Zimbabwe.. which is far way from 'we' in the US

I meant that we should supply Zimbabwe with vaccines as soon as possible, rather than ivermectin or any other drug. Give everyone the one thing we know for sure works. Perhaps as a stopgap some other drugs might be used, but the best stopgap by far is to wear masks, social distance, track cases and so on. There is no doubt this works.

Quote from Curbina

Claims of Evidence of Fungi growing on Mars.

If they are real, I hope they were not brought there by our spacecraft.

The pandemic is deeply embedded in popular culture. I expect it will be forgotten in a few years, but for now it is in TV, comic books, advertisements . . . Here is a surrealist advertisement for chewing gum that portrays a fictional sudden end to the pandemic. As this website puts it (not the gum company): "Celebrating the moment the world gets back to normal and we're able to have orgies again."

https://digg.com/video/this-ex…neKWRAhL897rBeGjeCOs5Kwmw

Quote from Fm1

You always demand facts studies and websites, yet whenever you are called out you seem to misplace, not bookmark yada, yada, and post propaganda, very Huxley Esq. Again!!!!

Oh give me a break. That, like, never happens. You are saying I -- of all people -- do not give out information. Really? I have given out 4.8 million papers on cold fusion.

What you say makes no sense. I have been saying "I don't know, I can't tell, I have not read enough, I am neutral on ivermectin." You demanding I give you proof that I don't know. Are you asking for a list of papers I have not read? That's nuts.

I am sure you are aware there is a controversy. Okay, you are interested in this controversy. I am not. So you can sort out the controversy yourself, without help from me.

Quote from Bob#2

Ivermectin was first proposed almost one year ago..... long... long... long BEFORE your vaccines. Ivermectin was readily available long... long...long BEFORE the vaccines.

But we don't need it now, so it is a moot point.

Quote from Bob#2

If Ivermectin would have been quickly implemented and optimized, probably MILLIONS of people would still be alive today!

I doubt it is as good as that. If the results were that clear, it would be widely used in places like India, if not in the U.S. Ivermectin was never used in Korea or Japan but they avoided a catastrophe.

Quote from Bob#2

The lockdowns avoided and the economy not ready to collapse. But no... alternatives to the vaccines HAD TO BE discredited, partially to uphold the emergency use mandate.

All that could have been avoided easily. They had no lockdowns in Korea, and only mild ones in Japan. If we had implemented universal masks, testing and case tracking there would only be ~20,000 dead and no lockdowns. Lockdowns were the last ditch response when all else failed. All else failed because none of it was done. The experts pleaded Trump and the other leaders to take steps, but they never did.

Quote from Fm1

Jed, you keep referring to the experts, just who are these experts, names please and the studies that prove those statements on ivermectin.

Sorry, I do not keep close track or bookmark them. Do a search and I am sure you will find experts on both sides. It could be that all of the ones opposed to ivermectin are intellectually dishonest. Maybe they are part of a conspiracy of big pharma that I am not aware of. Since I have not looked closely and I have no opinion about ivermectin, I might have overlooked this. However, in most disputes of this nature, it turns out both sides are sincere.

(The dispute in cold fusion is not between two groups of experts. It is between experts such as Fleischmann and people who have no qualifications who have read nothing and know nothing, at places like the Scientific American.)

I guess the one opinion I do have is that if ivermectin works, more power to it and that's great, but the vaccines work better. I am sure they have no use for ivermectin in Israel today, because only 1,000 people are still sick there, down from the peak of 80,000, and there are only 30 new cases and 1 death. (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/) If you can totally prevent the disease, and then eliminate it, you don't need ivermectin or any other treatment. Before the polio vaccine was developed, there were many drugs and treatments for the symptoms. There were ways to reduce severity and help recovery. There were doctors and hospitals devoted to taking care of polio patients. After the vaccine, there were no more cases, and after a while, no need for the treatments.

I don't know about ivermectin, but I have looked closely at the vaccines, mainly the stats from places like Israel, but also the science. I have at least an amateur grasp of the science, at least as far as a person can get with a course in undergraduate biology. I know the difference between DNA and RNA! I fully understood the New York Times interactive article about the vaccine production, which I highly recommend: https://www.nytimes.com/intera…-coronavirus-vaccine.html

Quote from Alan Fletcher

Fact Check-VAERS data does not prove thousands died from receiving COVID-19 vaccines

https://www.reuters.com/articl…19-vaccines-idUSL1N2LV0NY

Excellent article. It links to this CDC document, which is also very good:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronaviru…afety/adverse-events.html

I would like to emphasize this sentence from the CDC: "The known and potential benefits of the J&J/Janssen vaccine outweigh its known and potential risks." It is not enough to establish there is some risk. Everything has some risk. Even a peanut butter sandwich can cause allergy or choking. You have to show the risks outweigh the benefits, for the individual and society as a whole. Even is the vaccine does cause deaths, you are more likely to die from COVID than from the vaccine. Plus, you have an obligation to society to help achieve herd immunity, to prevent others from getting sick, and hopeful to drive the virus into extinction.

QUOTES FROM CDC:

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination

. . .

What you need to know

• COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.

• Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring in U.S. history.

• CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as you can.
• Adverse events described on this page have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)external icon.
• VAERS accepts reports of any adverse event following vaccination, even if it is not clear the vaccine caused the problem.
• After a temporary pause to investigate thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) following vaccination with Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen (J&J/Janssen) COVID-19 Vaccine, the data show that TTS is a rare adverse event. The known and potential benefits of the J&J/Janssen vaccine outweigh its known and potential risks.
• CDC, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and other federal agencies will continue to monitor the safety of COVID-19 vaccines.

. . .

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination

CDC uses the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) to closely monitor reports of death following COVID-19 vaccination.

• FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS.
• Reports to VAERS of death following vaccination do not necessarily mean the vaccine caused the death.
• CDC follows up on any report of death to request additional information to learn more about what occurred and to determine whether the death was a result of the vaccine or was unrelated.
• CDC, FDA, and other federal agencies will continue to monitor the safety of COVID-19 vaccines.

Over 245 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through May 3, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 4,178 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths.

Quote from gerold.s

But it is still very significant, if you compare it with other vaccines in absolute numbers.

No, not at all. All other modern vaccines have similar numbers of deaths per patient, after adjusting for age groups. In all other cases, nearly all of these deaths in the database are coincidental. Modern vaccines kill fewer than 1 per million patients, and so far, the COVID 19 ones appear to be at that level. Perhaps additional research will reveal that some of those 3,600 deaths were not coincidences, and there was a causal connection. But that has not happened yet.

As I said, "all other vaccines have similar numbers of deaths per patient . . ." You have to be careful making that comparison. It is not a straightforward, one-for-one comparison. As I said, you have to compare similar age groups. And other conditions. The COVID vaccines have been administered mainly to people over 65. Whereas most other vaccines are given to children under 6. Elderly people die by coincidence far more often than small children. Their overall health is much worse. So, the per capita number of coincidental deaths will be far higher for COVID because of who gets it. You have to adjust for age groups, and also for pre-existing health problems such as obesity. Children are much less likely to be obese than 65-year-old adults.

The per capita rate of coincidental deaths for people age 20 will also be far lower than age 65. The absolute number of 20 year olds who die after getting COVID vaccinations will be roughly the same as the number of 20 year olds who die after an influenza vaccine, or a tetanus shot, or any other vaccine. Some number of 20-year-olds are certain to die within a week of getting any medical treatment -- or no medical treatment.

It is very difficult to separate out coincidental deaths from ones that may have been caused by the vaccine. Amateurs should not attempt to do this.

Quote from Fm1

well jed let's see what you make of this. A confirmed death from vaccine. You can no longer claim no deaths related to vaccine, spin that!

Really, that is a silly thing to say. Surely you understand that all vaccines have some level of risk. Heck, drinking a glass of water has some risk. You can never avoid risk. You have to compare the risk of taking the vaccine with the risk of not taking it and possibly getting the disease.

You must understand that the vaccines will end the pandemic and save ~100 million lives worldwide. Nothing else can do that! Even if the vaccines kill some small number of people from blood clots, they will save millions of times more people than they kill.

This is not "spin." It is a rational, common sense, risk/benefit analysis. It would insane to kill millions of people in order to save 10 or 20 people.

Quote from gerold.s

You can check the CDC wonder database...

There seem to be approx. 3600 deaths from 1 - 4/2021 related to a COVID-19 vaccine in the US.

No, there are not. There are 3,600 deaths recorded soon after getting the vaccine, but there is as yet no causal connection established between them. They are probably not related. They are probably coincidental. As explained in this discussion above, Uncle Sam keeps track of every single report of deaths, even when there is no reason to think the vaccine caused the death. That is a prudent thing to do, because a researcher looking through the records and medical reports might spot a connection that no one suspected exists. So far that has not happened, except with the blood clots from the adenovirus ones.

Quote from Fm1

well jed let's see what you make of this. A confirmed death from vaccine. You can no longer claim no deaths related to vaccine, spin that!

In my opinion this should spur greater production and use of the mRNA vaccines, rather than the adenovirus type. There is no evidence the mRNA ones cause blood clots. However, I would not again withdraw the J&J adenovirus vaccine, because even if this type does kill a small number of patients, it saves hundreds or thousands of times more lives, and prevents terrible effects such as the long-haul syndromes. It is worth the risk. We need to deploy both types as quickly as possible, in the largest numbers we can, to save lives.

Suppose it turns out the mRNA vaccines also kill or disable people. We know that outcome occurs in less than 1 per million patients. ~600 million people have been vaccinated, but there are not 600 deaths reported yet for either the mRNA or adenovirus types. You must take into account the risk/benefit of any treatment. And you must remember that the risk of blood clots is exceedingly small. As one expert put it, even if every blood clot death was caused by the vaccine, you are still more likely to be killed in a car accident driving to get the vaccine than you are to be killed by the vaccine itself. If they find the mechanism that causes clots, they can reduce the risk even more, by identifying patients who might get clots, and by targeting specific treatments of clots when they arise.

The vaccines have already reduced the death rate in the U.S. from a peak of 4,000 per day down to 800. They are saving 3,000 lives a day in the U.S. alone. We should not stop using them because a few people may die from blood clots. Killing another 600,000 more people to save ~10 people would be an insane trade-off!

In another forum, someone said they were angry because a person they know became very sick after getting the vaccine. I pointed out this was probably a coincidence. But, suppose for the sake of argument the person dies and the doctors determine the vaccine did cause it. That changes nothing. It is no reason to get angry. It would be terribly unfortunate, but we have to accept a certain level of risk to avoid much greater risks. I wrote in response:

"Suppose, for the sake of argument, the doctors determine that the death was caused by the Pfizer vaccine. Surely you realize that this vaccine will save millions of lives -- as many as 100 million. If it also kills some people, that is tragic, but the risk/benefit is strongly in favor of the vaccine. If your friend was killed in a car accident, would you be angry at the automobile industry? Would you feel righteous anger at the government for building highways? Of course not! You would accept the fact that cars kill some number of people, but cars are worth the risk because they confer many advantages.

Every year, in the U.S. 12,000 people die from falling down stairs. Do you feel righteous anger at the companies that construct stairways and the carpenters who install them? Would you campaign to eliminate stairways and make all houses and buildings one-story high?"

Quote from Fm1

There are no results that the FDA has looked at they haven't even discussed ivermectin yet,

If the FDA has not even discussed ivermectin, then why are doctors "disappointed at the stance of regulatory bodies such as the FDA," as reported above? What are they disappointed about? Here is the FDA statement. I would say they have discussed it in this statement. They say they have not reviewed test data yet but "some initial research is underway." However, they give various reasons why they think it is a bad idea.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/…treat-or-prevent-covid-19

The FDA may not have done an official evaluation of the test data yet, but other experts have published various opinions of the test data. Some pro, others con. There does not appear to be a consensus. I don't know what to make of it.

Quote from Fm1

Hard to believe’: Scientists alarmed by COVID’s diabetes link, particularly in children

Among Covid-19’s many ripple effects, the worsening of the global diabetes burden could carry a heavy public-health toll.

Another dreadful side effect. Perhaps this means it would be a good idea to extend the vaccines to all age groups, including children. The doctors are testing the effects of the vaccines in children. I hope they find no problems and decide they are safe.

The disease is usually light in children, which some people argue means we should not vaccinate children. That makes sense I guess, but on the other hand, there are reports long haul problems in children, and now this risk of diabetes. Plus, children can infect others. I guess I favor vaccinating children, but only after extensive double blind studies with tens of thousands of children, and only if the tests show the vaccines are extremely safe.