Rossi: The E-Cat X Does Produce Electricity Directly

1st Official Post
    • Official Post

    [feedquote='E-Cat World','http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/12/26/rossi-the-e-cat-x-does-produce-electricity-directly/']Thanks to Artefact for posting this from the Journal of Nuclear Physics. Finally we get a clear answer from Andrea Rossi about what the E-Cat X is doing. James Watt December 26th, 2015 at 5:59 AM Dr Andrea Rossi, Can you finally tell us if the E-Cat X is able to produce electricity directly? That […][/feedquote]

    Let's suppose Rossi is producing Muons (= heavy electrons) just like Holmlid does, and that they're emitted in a burst-like, semi-random fashion depending on operating conditions.


    What would be the immediate effects of this on the surroundings, electrical equipment, living beings?
    Can one get electrocuted by a muon stream?


    It might turn out to not be really related with Rossi, but that's something I've been wondering for a good while.

    I'd just like to jump in here and propose a way that this could be done, if alpha or beta decay can be induced.


    Create a thin wafer with an alpha or beta emitter on one side of it. Create a gap across which alpha or beta particles would need to traverse to reach the other side, where there is an electrical conductor (e.g., copper). On the emitter side, create a bias voltage to induce the decay. As charged particles cross the gap and reach the conducting metal on the other side, an imbalance of negative or positive charge will accumulate on both sides of the gap, setting up a potential.



    A strong enough magnetic field might help to create a more focused current of charged particles.

    I'd like to jump in and point out that if this does not rapidly become a self-running, no heat or electrical input, machine, this will be definitive proof that Rossi is lying through his teeth.



    High efficiency electricity, high COP which one can presume means high heat output... runs for 42 days 24/7... so WHY is this not self running? It had better be and soon and someone who can be relied upon needs to see it and test it properly. Why do I think this will NEVER happen? Must be only because I am such a pathological skeptic. It couldn't be because Rossi is a serial liar. So get ready for the Nobel Prize.

    Mary, why do you keep repeating yourself? May be Contribute with something creative and useful for once?


    In my view Rossi can be critisized for many things. But he is first and foremost an entrepeneur and inventor, not a scientist.


    He Obviously want to be ahead of the game, and have most likely deliberately said and done things to confuse.


    But as you should now know: "Nothing personal, only business"


    and If I had the greatest invention of history, I would have done the same.

    Quote from Ecco

    Let's suppose Rossi is producing Muons (= heavy electrons) just like Holmlid does, and that they're emitted in a burst-like, semi-random fashion depending on operating conditions.


    What would be the immediate effects of this on the surroundings, electrical equipment, living beings?
    Can one get electrocuted by a muon stream?


    It might turn out to not be really related with Rossi, but that's something I've been wondering for a good while.


    The method in which the UV level LENR reaction works is that a monopole beam produced by SPPs disrupts the protons and neutrons in the nucleus which then results is meson production, at least K-mesons and maybe even more shorter lived and higher energy mesons. These mesons decay into pions and then muons and finally electrons. For each meson produced, at least one electron and maybe multiple electrons are generated base on the meson decay path. This direct electrical energy generation method was how the Papp engine produced over unity power where that overcharge of one cylinder produced the power that generated the electric arc that powered the other cylinder. The hard part to engineer in this type of system is the gathering of the electric charge. The Papp engine used alpha radiation produced by radium. Bob Rehner is using thorium in his system. I thought that thorium was restricted by NRC regulation. Rossi has to find a way to extract these newly created electrons from the system without the help of alpha radiation to positively polarize the gathering electrodes because excess negative electric charge will disrupt the basic meson reaction. The Plasmatron is a plasma based system that also used this LENR method to produce excess electric power. The COP on the Plasmatron was 5.


    In general, the type and form of power that LENR will produce is dictated by the wavelength of light used to stimulate the SPPs. Rossi must be using palladium because that metal works best at UV frequencies. UV LENR using iridium will produce mesons as Holmlid has shown.

    @oystla


    Primarily Rossi is a self-publicist. Consider - how many genius inventors do you know who spend a significant amount of their time answering questions from fans on a blog?




    @'Eric


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…irect_charging_generators
    There is not likely to be any such technology which is new. Specifically your suggestion does work, but it generates very high voltages and low currents. Thus for an alpha with energy 10eV and conversion efficiency of eta we have a collector voltage of eta * 10,000,000V. (Your design has an extra loss of 50% but this can in principle be reduced by suitable spherical collectors).


    Practically this voltage is limited by the insulation between collector and emitting surfaces, through which the charged particles must pass. So low efficiencies are expected: if the voltage is high then the down conversion becomes both expensive and inefficient.


    Those who have not completely suspended their critical faculties when considering Rossi's antics will perhaps regard him as a modern-day Leonardo, as no doubt he sees himself. An e-cat that actually worked, even at low COP of say 3, would be very very valuable and have many uses. Given that the input power is converted to heat it is clear that if e-cats work they can be made to do this with any COP you like, through the use of temperature-sensitive cooling. This is old and well-understood technology.


    So with such a demand-controlled e-cat we can have standard conversion systems for electricity.


    However, if Rossi cannot get his e-cats to work (as from my POV is obvious) then moving the research target to a new and claimed better type of ecat would be most logical. therefore this move is further meta-evidence that his stuff does not work.


    Of course, all meta-evidence is weak, compared with the real evidence it does not work.

    Thomas, Actually more inventors shóuld do the same ;)


    Rossi said once he use his blog also to get ideas and suggestions from the readers. A clever trick, using a free workforce to improve his work, If it's all true I mean... ;)


    I Wonder how many inventions Edison was behind himself (which he patented), and how many actually his workers were behind ;)

    Quote from Thomas Clarke

    Specifically your suggestion does work, but it generates very high voltages and low currents.


    I probably got the design above through osmosis, by reviewing existing ideas at some point. I suspect the limitations you mention apply to the general assumption that decay rates cannot be accelerated. If they can, I imagine you might get very high currents using the existing designs.


    Quote from Thomas Clarke

    Your design has an extra loss of 50% but this can in principle be reduced by suitable spherical collectors


    Yes, I thought about that too. Perhaps a cylindrical coaxial configuration, for example, with the emitter in the center of a length of metal tubing and separation enforced between the inner and outer components.


    Quote from Thomas Clarke

    Those who have not completely suspended their critical faculties when considering Rossi's antics will perhaps regard him as a modern-day Leonardo, as no doubt he sees himself.


    This is possible. I see him more in the line of a Thomas Edison, using brute force to improve upon systems that were already discovered. Here I don't intend to take away from whatever he's added beyond that, although we won't know much about that until such a time as it becomes publically available.


    Quote from Thomas Clarke

    Of course, all meta-evidence is weak, compared with the real evidence it does not work.


    Yes -- I think we are familiar with one another's positions. :)

    • Official Post

    I'm very cautious with such a claim, not that it s false, but that we interpret it wrongly.
    Direct production seems here not to mean using turbines or engines... are you sure?


    Does it allows TEG or thermionic converters ? or magnetic converter of some interference ?
    or betavoltaic?


    Is it producing electricity efficiently, even if heat is produced efficiently ? just enough to loop back the COP ?


    Rossi, beside selling the fur befor he have caught the bear, is regularly using ambiguous, improper or italenglish expressions.


    by the way Coldfusion3 have an article on that statement, quite enthusiastic with some good reasoning, once you assume the optimistic interpretation of Rossi.
    http://coldfusion3.com/blog/ro…uces-electricity-directly

    @oystla

    Quote

    If I had the greatest invention of history, I would have done the same.

    Then you would be committing a total stupidity. You're joking no? Pulling my leg? Rossi would be the last person suitable for commercially developing his idea, were it real. If someone has "the greatest invention of history" (arguable, even if LENR works), then one protects it with a PROPER patent, reduction to practice and hiring an army of attorneys. Then, one goes to major companies in major countries and licenses the technology for billions and then one leans back and enjoys. There is no need whatever and never was to test a collection of multiple ecats in some God-forsaken container for some fictitious customer of [lexicon]IH[/lexicon]. If Rossi really has something, really had something as he claimed in 2007 (!)-- enough to heat a factory )!!!!!!!) then it is either incredibly stupidity or complete insanity to sit on the darn thing for almost a decade!


    So really ask yourself if you are so ignorant and paranoid that you would really do the same or if in fact, you'd get some good advice and do totally the opposite.


    Eric, Eric, Rossi is about as much like Thomas Edison as Mother Theresa was like Willy Sutton, the unrepentant and chronic bank robber.

    @Thomas


    Quote

    However, if Rossi cannot get his e-cats to work (as from my POV is obvious) then moving the research target to a new and claimed better type of ecat would be most logical. therefore this move is further meta-evidence that his stuff does not work.

    Indeed it is. Moving the target is indeed logical if Rossi is a crook which he most certainly is and has always been. Obviously, if his ecat-X did what he says, it would be game over for skeptics. All he'd have to do is feed back electrical power from the output to the input to make it self running. Excuses over. Don't worry, it won't happen.


    What puzzles me so much is how so many people here take Rossi's word for all this stuff. It's mind boggling and it's what keeps me returning.


    Recommended book for y'all, someone gave it to me for Christmas:


    http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Bullshit-greatest-scams-revealed/dp/0692224963/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1451169869&sr=1-1&keywords=bullshit+scams


    Rossi is not in the book and if he were, he'd not even be in the top hundred thousand or so. The field is very crowded with some things people buy, use or believe every day. Nice book. Disillusioning though. Every buy a diamond, for example? Drink extremely expensive wine... well, read this book!

    If there is an atomic reaction inside the nickel charged with hydrogen and lithium (whatever this reaction is or is not), before thermalization, the energy will pass in the range of electron exitation level. If the nickel foil is pressed against some semiconductor, you will form a diode (fusion diode). And the exitation of the electrons around the junction zone will produce a voltage, and thus a current.

    Mary, thank you. You gave me the laugh of the day, hehe :)


    And by the way:
    "
    If someone has "the greatest invention of history" (arguable, even if LENR works), then one protects it with a PROPER patent, reduction to practice and hiring an army of attorneys. Then, one goes to major companies in major countries and licenses the technology for billions and then one leans back and enjoys.
    "


    Before anyone would want to license the technology from Rossi, he would have to prove the technology.


    A year of "factory acceptance test" at a customer site, is not unheard of, but very normal.


    the E-cat should now be at TRL 7.( ref. DOD definition) Too early to license the technology.


    ref .
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level


    and I'm sure he has more patent applications up his sleeve...


    It is most likely that Rossi new gadget is just like the device Holmlid has produced where mesons decay into over unity electrons. I deduce this because Rossi states that the heat output can be traded off against electrical production.


    Hank Mills
    December 26th, 2015 at 1:54 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    4 – Does maximizing the electrical output from the E-Cat X in anyway require a diminishment or compromise of the heat output?
    ----------------------
    Andrea Rossi
    December 26th, 2015 at 3:04 PM
    Hank Mills:


    4- obviously

    I just wonder why Yugo and Clarke tirelessly continue their constant sceptic replies to all people here on this blog. Why are they doing this? We know what their point of view is and if we are wrong they can say: 'we have told you over and over again'. If they were clever than it would suffice to copy just on every argument: 'I do not believe it' and do nice things for the rest of the day. It seems that they are not clever or that some other thing drives them. Maybe they just want to play the Devils Advocate? Or maybe they are payed for doing this? The latter would be stupid, because it serves no purpose. Especially being rude like Yugo often has a tendency for, is totally unproductive, so I would qualify Yugo just as being stupid. However, I like Clarke's arguments, because that keeps us sharp and we should be open for other views. Just some questions to Clarke: If at some day LENR proves to be true, would you admit? What kind of proof do you need to be convinced?

    Quote

    I probably got the design above through osmosis, by reviewing existing ideas at some point. I suspect the limitations you mention apply to the general assumption that decay rates cannot be accelerated. If they can, I imagine you might get very high currents using the existing designs.


    The issue is not the current - high or low - but the voltage. High currents would mean extraordinary powers and the heat dissipation (because of the low efficiency) becomes very problematic. Thus: 1A -> 10MW total of which most will be dissipated as heat.


    Also (as I said above) getting 10MV insulation requires a considerable gap - in air it would be 300m, but you can maybe do better in vacuum - the issue there is direct electron emission from the boundary field.


    From here, for 10MV, I get a breakdown of 10kV/cm => 10m gap needed. This is not impossible but would make such a generator rather large!

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