Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was Endothermic

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    My hunch is that there was possibly an endothermic process taking place, plus water cooling. Try to falsify that.


    I cannot completely falsify it but it seems to be physically impossible and it makes absolutely no sense at all. That is close to falsifying!


    It is physically impossible because you cannot get that much water service in Florida at a small commercial warehouse like this, as I explained elsewhere.


    It makes absolutely no sense because why would Rossi go to the trouble of hiding the waste heat? It would be simpler, easier and far cheaper to use air cooling. So why would not he simply air cool the machine? He claims he has to hide the secret J.M. endothermic machine because it is protected by IP, and of course anyone can use x-ray vision to look inside the machine and read the IP. Okay that makes no sense, but there is nothing remotely secret about air cooling. So rather than hide the air cooling equipment, it makes sense that he would show it to visitors and thus prove he is actually producing 1 WM.


    He would definitely need this cooling equipment, because he claims the reactor produces 1 MW all the time, even on days when he said it was turned off. It is not possible the magical factory produces twenty-four hours a day even on weekdays and holidays.


    Equipment large enough to cool down 1 MW with air cooling is cheaper than water cooling I think. The equipment is about the size of two automobiles. I suppose the landlord might allow it outside the building. One thing is certain: no such equipment was installed at Rossi's site. No air or water cooling, and no large ventilation system such as you see in a commercial kitchen or bakery. There is nothing like that.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    Equipment large enough to cool down 1 MW with air cooling is cheaper than water cooling I think.


    Thus finalize Your logic and present us the water-bill!


    Even a very energy efficient endothermic process needs cooling (80C --> 20C) after production. Anything better than 30% (300kWh) waste would be fantastic!


    There are enough witness around to ask for any transportation to the Doral warehouse. The only problem is the adjacent room, (same size) which could have been used...

    • Official Post
    Quote from Bob

    Or, I could be wrong about what IH filed and there is room for an actual customer.



    Bob,


    This is everything IH has to say about the customer (so far):


    Defendants deny the allegations in Paragraph 64 as to Plaintiffs locating a customer in Miami, Florida who agreed to allow its facility to be used for a “Guaranteed Performance” test. The company Plaintiffs “located” was a company closely affiliated with Plaintiffs (J.M. Products, Inc.) that had no actual use for the steam produced by the Plant, and thus was not a “customer” for the steam power to be produced by the Plant.


    Leonardo and Rossi manipulated the testing process by, among other things, 1) insisting that the Plant be relocated to Miami, far away from Industrial Heat’s offices, to provide steam to a purported manufacturing “customer” that did not actually exist;


    Eventually Counter-Plaintiffs discovered that the test that Leonardo and Rossi were conducting, in conjunction with the supposed “customer” in Miami, was not a real test at all, but a carefully scripted effort to deceive Counter-Plaintiffs


    Unbeknownst to Counter-Plaintiffs, everything material in the Leonardo and Rossi proposal was false – there was no customer in Florida who needed steam power for its chemical products processing, there was no intention for Leonardo and Rossi to operate the Plant Case to provide power to a real customer, and there was no intention for Leonardo and Rossi to seek authorizations from regulatory agencies to allow the Plant or subsequent E-Cat plants to be used for other commercial purposes


    JMP, however, has never been a subsidiary of Johnson Matthey, was not operating or planning to operate any manufacturing process in Florida, and was in fact owned by persons whom Johnson represented in writing did not have any ownership interest in JMP.

    Quote from THHuxley

    Otehrs here (not known skeptics - e.g. Eric) don't rate the He evidence.


    I think the simple production of helium in palladium deuteride electrolysis experiments is interesting and should be followed up on. I do not think there is value in pursuing a Q/4He ratio, for I suspect the ratio not to be constant. But if it is constant, that is also interesting. I definitely do not go along with the proposition that the existing helium experiments provide a preponderance of evidence for the conclusion that there is a constant Q/4He ratio that centers around some expected value related to the fusion of deuterium.


    Well... there you have it! I think arguing about what type of process could possibly use 1MW of heat is moot. Jones Day is not foolish, regardless of what some think of them. They know what they are doing. I cannot believe they would file an answer that would be so easily confirmed blatantly false if it were. Rossi cannot hide the "customer" from the courts. Jones Day would request a subpoena for them. According to the above, IH has stated there was no customer nor production. Rossi has doubled down on a blog, which is not a court of law. I think the weight of the matter greatly tilts one way here. ;(

    http://joam.inoe.ro/arhiva/pdf6_3/Lucaci.pdf


    A NEW FAMILY OF NICKEL POWDER FOR ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING APPLICATIONS


    Quote: "The specific surface area values using BET method show that the chemically processed Ni powders have a very high specific surface area (> 60 m2/g), which recommend them for electrical applications, especially for electrode applications. For Ni carbonyl powder the specific surface area was found 0.68 m2/g.


    The evaluation of the chemisorption characteristics by using hydrogen selective adsorption method shows that the modified Ni powder exhibits high power of hydrogen adsorption (600 µgH2/g), which recommend them as catalysts in hydrogen addition reaction"


    Andrea Rossi
    April 8, 2016 at 9:54 AM
    Teemu:
    I knew the Customer in the office of my Attorney Henry Johnson. They were enthusiast to test our 1 MW plant, to see if it really worked, because they were ( and are ) interested to buy more plants for their facilities in Europe. They wanted not to be exposed, though, therefore incorporated JM Products and made a plant for their production to make the test and appointed President their Attorney, who was also, as I said, my Attorney. IH knew all this and agreed, obviously, on this, making a rental agreement with JM Products to make the test in their factory. When IH met with the President of JM in Raleigh, I was present and I explained that he was also my Attorney. No problem has been raised by IH.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.


    The nickel powder could be used in battery electrode applications.


    Please allow me to revise my speculation on the relationship between the 1 year test customer and Rossi as follows:


    Rossi and the customer were introduced when Rossi submitted his nickel powder preparation process patent. Rossi was informed that his powder preparation was already patented by the customer and a meeting of the minds regarding licensing fees on IP between Rossi and the customer went on in Rossi's lawyer's office.

    Edited once, last by axil ().

    I think AR has really boxed himself in with his statement about being endothermic. There is simply too much waste heat to not have major ventilation or drainage installed in the space shown in the photograph. This space does not appear to have either of those. And forget the drain, the amount of water supply to that space to do that type of cooling would be noticeable, even beyond the water bill. We are talking about modifying the plumbing in and around the space.


    It would require modifications to the water line to the space. If there are no plans filed with the City of Doral for expanding the flow of water into the space then it didn't happen. No plumbing changes, and no ventilation on the roof means AR is not being truthful here. No matter how endothermic this industrial process was (and let's say it was at the level of 60% or 70%) you would still have enough waste heat to require physical modifications to the space. So where are they?


    I find it amazing that Rossi supporters always glaze over the glaring incredible yet ridiculous coincidence that Rossi and the owners of an overseas company who could use Rossi's technology would share the same relatively small-time Florida lawyer. Brilliant minds are struggling to figure out what product or process could use the heat/energy in the way that Rossi is claiming, yet coincidentally Rossi runs into the very customer he needs...ohh the odds! Then that this overseas company would name their attorney as the President of the division created to use this amazing technology. It would be hard to make it actually sound any more outlandish if one was to try. This narrative is so humorous to me!

    Quote from Deleo

    I think AR has really boxed himself in with his statement about being endothermic. There is simply too much waste heat to not have major ventilation or drainage installed in the space shown in the photograph. This space does not appear to have either of those. And forget the drain, the amount of water supply to that space to do that type of cooling would be noticeable, even beyond the water bill. We are talking about modifying the plumbing in and around the space.


    It would require modifications to the water line to the space. If there are no plans filed with the City of Doral for expanding the flow of water into the space then it didn't happen. No plumbing changes, and no ventilation on the roof means AR is not being truthful here. No matter how endothermic this industrial process was (and let's say it was at the level of 60% or 70%) you would still have enough waste heat to require physical modifications to the space. So where are they?




    PVC piping can do the job (hot water effluent)


    Temperature limitations for PVC-U DWV pipe


    Thermal cycling tests for PVC drainage pipes require that a test installation withstand alternating 90 second cycles of 34 litres of water at 88°C to 95°C with 34 litres of water at 10°C to 15°C without leakage or excessive deformation.

    Quote from stephenrenzz

    I find it amazing that Rossi supporters always glaze over the glaring incredible yet ridiculous coincidence that Rossi and the owners of an overseas company who could use Rossi's technology would share the same relatively small-time Florida lawyer. Brilliant minds are struggling to figure out what product or process could use the heat/energy in the way that Rossi is claiming, yet coincidentally Rossi runs into the very customer he needs...ohh the odds! Then that this overseas company would name their attorney as the President of the division created to use this amazing technology. It would be hard to make it actually sound any more outlandish if one was to try. This narrative is so humorous to me!


    The specualtion goes as follows: The meeting in the Rossi's lawyer's office was setup to negotiate a licence agreement between JMP and Rossi. This meeting was setup by Rossi's lawyer.


    Note: JMP was known by IH from the very start of the testing.

    Quote from axil

    The specualtion goes as follows: The meeting in the Rossi's lawyer's office was setup to negotiate a licence agreement between JMP and Rossi. This meeting was setup by Rossi's lawyer.


    Note: JMP was known by IH from the very start of the testing.


    Well...going off Rossi's words, the odds are truly astounding that the inventor and customer were brought together in this way. So ridiculous in my opinion.

    A chemical endothermic reaction (as opposed to phase change) requires a LOT of waste power to work from simple entropy calculations because chemical energy (being essentially electrical in nature) has more order than heat energy. The power you can extract depends on the Carnot Law and the hot/cold temp ratio. In this case realistically we have 100C and 40C (even 40C is pretty difficult given the enormous heat flux). So we have


    Carnot efficiency = 373 - 313/313 ~ 20%. Thus even with an optimally efficient endothermic process leading to embodied chemical energy the required waste heat is still 800kW.


    So the "endothermic reaction" excuse is just blog silliness.


    you could use all of that heat without waste if you were melting ice cubes. Any takers for that?

    Quote from stephenrenzz

    Well...going off Rossi's words, the odds are truly astounding that the inventor and customer were brought together in this way. So ridiculous in my opinion.


    The provided speculation answers the reason for Rossi's behavior that demonstrated extreme secrecy in protecting the customer's ip. More directly stated, Rossi is using the IP of the customer.


    In leaching, the heat content of steam is used to increase the temperature of water from groundwater temperature (13C) to leaching temperature 75C.

    Quote

    In leaching, the heat content of steam is used to increase the temperature of water from groundwater temperature (13C) to leaching temperature 75C.


    and your point is?

    Quote from THHuxley

    Carnot efficiency = 373 - 313/313 ~ 20%. Thus even with an optimally efficient endothermic process leading to embodied chemical energy the required waste heat is still 800kW.


    So the "endothermic reaction" excuse is just blog silliness.


    @ THH: Chemistry and Carnot are two different disziplines.


    But anyway, if You can find a process to harvest the energy of a delta T of 70C and store it chemically then You are a rich man.


    But the other way round. It takes a lot of energy to liquidate a massive body.., or to break up raw material (phase change). But where are the transportations?


    I would reevaluate your post...

    @ THH: Chemistry and Carnot are two different disziplines.But anyway, if You can find a process to harvest the energy of a delta T of 70C and store it chemically then You are a rich man.But the other way round. It takes a lot of energy to liquidate a massive body.., or to break up raw material (phase change). But where are the transportations?I would reevaluate your post...


    I don't understand this. You are as far as I can see agreeing with me. The issue is that if you just go on embodied energy you can get quite a high possible energy storage - for example H2O -> H2 + 1/2 O2 would give you only (!) 150g/s of product needed to embody 1MW. If you are saying this is too farfetched anyway so who cares I'd agree, otherwise it is relevant.

    The water warmed from 13C to 75C at 1 MW/second is 3.66 gallons per second.


    There must have been a "heat on demand" relationship between the customer and the reactor such that the demand for heat varied with the "maximum heat production rate" being limited to 3.66 gallons per second. Rossi's reactor control mechanism must self throttle to reduce heat production based on demand. The reactor must automatically reduce power production based on the heat required by the customer on a heat required per second basis.


    This must be true because the customer was billed by IH for the amount of heat consumed.


    The high power rating of the reactor provides fast water warmup. This would have produced a high productivity capability to the customer by reducing water process warmup time

    Edited 3 times, last by axil ().

    Quote from THHuxley

    But IHFB(?) said Abd had on purpose posted weak evidence. So I needed further information about the claims to bother reading more.


    Well, I must have missed that comment about what I posted. I have deliberately not posted all the evidence, but that's because it's a lot of work. I recommend my paper for an outline, what I thought was important enough to put in a peer-reviewed journal. http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0574.pdf . There is more information in both of Storms' books.


    This is the situation: an examination of the body of evidence, most of which I have read -- not all! -- leads me to a preponderance of the evidence conclusion that cold fusion is real, nuclear in nature, and specifically that the FP Heat effect is converting deuterium to helium. That may not completely describe what is going on. Cold fusion is a mystery, a word that I often repeat.


    Further, my stand is that funding of work to confirm (or disconfirm) the heat/helium ratio in those experiments is likely to generate results of value. Much cold fusion research is highly speculative. This is not. This is nailing down what is already found and confirmed, where people may argue about how tightly it is nailed and a few may doubt it entirely. It is a research question that can be answered, definitively.


    It is possible that careful work will find that the ratio is variable, though apparently within some range. I consider it most likely that it will settle very close to 23.8 MeV/4He, within experimental error of the theoretical value for helium conversion to heat. That is because no other products have been identified at more than a million times or so down from helium, and there is no way that this ratio is going to be measured with enough precision, in the near future, to detect the shift in energy from them.


    Now, the work is already funded, apparently, and is under way. So there is no necessity, at this point, to convince anyone of anything. Whatever I could contribute to that process has already been done. If people want to know, I'll support learning.


    At this point, I've been focusing on Rossi v. Darden because It's There, and is the biggest news in town. Industrial Heat, however, is also fully funded and seems to be doing fine. I see no danger to their ability to fund research, one of the things that matters to me. This leaves me with my interest in people and how people think and interact. What I love to do is to empower people to realize their dreams, and that's what I do with much of my time when I'm not writing.

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