Rossi vs IH: (Update: Sep. 9 20– James A. Bass now a Third Party in IH’s Counter Complaint)

The bickering about whether or not there was enough ventilation to allow for a megawatt (or even a 750kW) to escape is meaningless at this point.

Andrea Rossi has flat out, directly stated the manufacturing process was highly endothermic, there was a low volume of product, and only occasionally was the ventilation available used. Either this is true or it is not. For his plant to have produced the high levels of output claimed, he has to be telling the truth. Otherwise, we'd have to entertain the idea that he was lying about the endothermic process to hide a super-secret heat venting technology he doesn't want revealed. To even consider that would border on insanity.

So for those of us who don't think the whole test was one big giant scam, either there was indeed a highly endothermic process or a much smaller quantity of heat was produced. If a much smaller quantity of heat was produced, his COP could have still be VERY high, but the invoices to I.H. were obviously deceitful. One could possibly argue that if he was producing a COP of 50 but at a lower power level (lets say 100kW) claiming a higher total output wouldn't be theft because JM Products would be paying for even MORE energy than they received. However, it would have still been highly deceptive and could also been interpreted as Rossi trying to make the performance of the plant seem better than it truly was. Also, in this hypothetical scenario, if he had been honest with I.H. about the high COP but lower output -- letting their engineers come to verify -- they may have very well been willing to pay him the 89 million at the end of the test (unless they had already decided to use contractual reasons not to pay him).

I'm not going to guess how much power the plant produced, and I don't think anyone else should either at this point. We need to wait and see what information is revealed as the litigation continues.

But even if the plant produced at least 750kW or above the majority of the time, I'm still irritated that EITHER party allowed the lines of communication to degrade so badly. To be blunt, if I had been Industrial Heat, I would have either asked for proof of the connection between JM Products and Johnson Matthey (which I think may indeed exist) or would have kept the one megawatt plant in their own facility in North Carolina.

Quote from MrSelfSustain

But even if the plant produced at least 750kW or above the majority of the time, I'm still irritated that EITHER party allowed the lines of communication to degrade so badly. To be blunt, if I had been Industrial Heat, I would have either asked for proof of the connection between JM Products and Johnson Matthey (which I think may indeed exist) or would have kept the one megawatt plant in their own facility in North Carolina.

it is easy to think that. However, to understand IH behavior requires understanding the decision they made in 2012 and how they carried it out. By 2014, IH knew that the plants were essentially worthless to them, almost certainly. So they allowed Rossi to do what he wanted with them. Maybe, after all, he would do something useful, maybe he would reveal the secret and, after all, JMP was promising to pay.

Rossi really made the move to Doral look attractive. Did they suspect he was going to "pull a GPT"? I don't know. It can be hard to anticipate something so insane.

SelfSustain, you have not taken on board the IH claim that they tested the technology thoroughly. To understand their behavior requires knowing that (at least that this is what they claim!)

Given that, the 1 MW Plants (both of them) were junk, useless. Why not give Rossi a chance?

Asking Rossi for proof has always blown his fuses. Until it became necessary, they did not want his fuses blown. By July 2015, it was obvious that cooperation was over, but ... maybe Rossi would decide to reveal the Secret.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Sorry Jed, too hard to swallow. So all of IH's employees looked up at the beginning of the one year test, saw irrefutable proof that there was no ventilation that could handle the heat, but decided it was well worth completing the one year test anyway, toiling day after day, gathering countless data points, repairing steam leaks when they occurred, providing periodic reports to Darden. Umm, okay, that sounds pretty congruent.

There were two people being paid by IH to assist Rossi. Fabiani was Rossi's old friend. Barry West I know little about, but from what I saw, he was a technician. Fabiani was not an "employee," but a contractor. I don't know about West.

I have no information that West was concerned about plant operation details. I also do not know when it was realized that there was a problem with ventilation. Sometimes the obvious stares us in the face for a long time before we notice it.

When IH figured out that Doral was a fraudulent set-up -- and, yes, I am assuming it was, at least in some aspects -- I do not know, I have not noticed evidence on it. In hindsight, the drastic difference between what was actually set up and run by Rossi and what had been contemplated in the Terms Sheet, indicates that it was all a ruse, and that is what IH is claiming.

From my point of view, Rossi totally shot himself in the foot by filing Rossi v. Darden, so I don't know that they anticipated it. My guess is that he threatened it and they told him, "Bad Idea."

Quote from JedRothwell

IH Fanboy wrote:

I do not know what photos you refer to, but the people at I.H. did not work on this machine when it was in Florida.

I think this may have been a photo of Fabiani and Barry West.

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IH Fanboy wrote:

Incorrect. Read the Answer. It says:

"81. Notwithstanding that Leonardo and Rossi allowed visitors to the facility in Doral where the Plant was located on a fairly regular basis, in July 2015, Rossi denied Murray access to the Plant without any reasonable justification. See Ex. 19. . . ."

Rossi has spread some confusion about this, perhaps. The Terms Sheet contained no such exclusion provision and implied that IH could visit at any time to see the Plant in operation. I would have assumed that IH employees could see the process. If there was a prior agreement, excluding IH staff from the "customer area," it was separate. However, the Terms Sheet clearly allowed access to IH and guests, to the power plant, at IH discretion. Rossi violated that with Murray, and possibly before that with another visit as mentioned. Rossi took over, asserting control that had not been granted. But IH did not mount a legal challenge. Other than rumor (i.e,. what Jed says), we do not know if or how much they protested.

If it was not a GPT, it did not matter that much.

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IH Fanboy wrote:

I am not suggesting this; I am asserting it. I know he did that. I.H. also stated this in the Motion to Dismiss, as I said.

The ERV, Penon, is Rossi's lap dog. He did whatever Rossi told him to do.

The MTD includes a note:

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Because Defendants are not permitted to introduce facts outside the Complaint and its Exhibits, this motion does not address, for example, the numerous errors in Plaintiffs’ purported “Guaranteed Performance Test” that the Complaint purposely ignores (such as departing from the purported test plan, ignoring inoperable reactors, relying on flawed measurements, and using unsuitable measuring devices).

That is not specific enough to derive what is being said here. I have heard of IH instruments being removed, I think. What IH was referring to seems more likely to be Penon's instruments being "unsuitable.

The basic issue is that Rossi ran the Doral plant, period. This was far, far from what a reasonable GPT would have been. We could literally argue for a century (allowing for it to continue through our descendants) over whether or not there was excess heat. The evidence for possible independent investigation has generally been removed.

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IH Fanboy wrote:

No, they objected loudly and often, complaining to many people, including me. However, Rossi ignored them and continued.

IH apparently decided not to blow the whistle prematurely. They allowed Rossi to continue until he said he was done. They then, apparently, padlocked the plant. The customer -- so eager before! and with one year left on the lease! -- had no objection. According to Rossi.

(This is one more sign that there was no production there. There was an appearance created, crudely.)

Hello Jed,

I'm not ready to automatically dismiss the possibility of a highly endothermic, low volume manufacturing process. Rossi claims there was such a process. IH claims there was no such process. But neither party has went all out to prove the other wrong. So I'm going to wait until evidence from one or both parties is provided, perform research on the topic, discuss the issue with the individuals I usually discuss these topics with, and come to a personal conclusion. If IH proves there was no such process being utilized then it will become obvious to everyone that Rossi is a pathological liar of the worst kind. Even if Rossi then provides evidence the plant produced a lower quantity of power at a higher COP, he will still be someone who can't be trusted. I'll be the first to broadcast that far and wide if IH's accusations turn out to be true.

My understanding is when the manufacturer occasionally halted production so heat was no longer being endothermically absorbed, it became necessary to vent out some of the excess heat.

Hello Abd,

"SelfSustain, you have not taken on board the IH claim that they tested the technology thoroughly. To understand their behavior requires knowing that (at least that this is what they claim!)"

If they have utilized "the licensed patents" and other knowledge that Rossi shared with them to perform a methodical, vigorous series of tests (not just a few one off tests) and failed to produce any significant excess heat, then I'd like to see them post all of the information immediately. If they really do think the technology is "worthless" and doesn't work, they have very little, from their point of view, to lose by sharing the IP with the world. Of course, Rossi would shout and scream if they disclosed information from "the licensed patents" with the world, but if Rossi TRULY has nothing and is a total fraudster, would they have anything to seriously worry about?

Personally, if I had the same opinion about Rossi as Jed or Dewey, and had lost all respect for Rossi, I'd post all of his IP online.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:

I am usually not this blunt, but suggesting that KWh/h is a unit of power is plain stupid. Think about it this way: if the two 'h's canceled, there would be no need for the notation.

• KWh/h means kilowatt-hours per hour. Kilowatt-hour is an energy unit. Energy rate, i.e, so much energy per so much time, is power. Power could be instantaneous or average. AC power is always stated as average power.
• There is no need for the notation. This is what many sources say, including the physicist Rossi recommended.
• Because I have been all over this before, including citing and quoting that source recommended by Rossi, the Norwegian Wikipedia, and other pages on the issue, and because the way that most of the planet thinks about this is being called stupid, I have a conclusion.
• I'm blocking. I repeat arguments to a point, attempting to present what's needed. It is obviously being ignored in favor of ad hoc make-wrong.

As always, this is not a promise or punishment but merely a way to make more efficient use of my time. I remain open to direct communication by many means.

Quote from MrSelfSustain

Hello Abd,

"SelfSustain, you have not taken on board the IH claim that they tested the technology thoroughly. To understand their behavior requires knowing that (at least that this is what they claim!)"

If they have utilized "the licensed patents" and other knowledge that Rossi shared with them to perform a methodical, vigorous series of tests (not just a few one off tests) and failed to produce any significant excess heat, then I'd like to see them post all of the information immediately. If they really do think the technology is "worthless" and doesn't work, they have very little, from their point of view, to lose by sharing the IP with the world. Of course, Rossi would shout and scream if they disclosed information from "the licensed patents" with the world, but if Rossi TRULY has nothing and is a total fraudster, would they have anything to seriously worry about?

Personally, if I had the same opinion about Rossi as Jed or Dewey, and had lost all respect for Rossi, I'd post all of his IP online.

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Rossi is claiming that they have no right to publish his IP. When you are being sued over your right to release information, releasing it can be viewed dimly by the judge. They did apparently do what you describe, with the assistance of experts. Rossi' has suggested that they might have used shoddy materials. They made the Lugano reactor. They made the "250 KW Tigers."

You are correct in that information from patents is already released, that is the whole point of patents. However, releasing trade secrets, such as the details of fuel preparation, would commonly be viewed as a tort.

On the other hand, they are involved with many research groups and they may assist them, privately. (Which possibility drives Rossi crazy.) They do have the right to license and sublicense. But what they have from Rossi is worthless except as an example of what doesn't work. If it does work and they have made some continued mistake and Rossi does manage to get products to market, they would also be harming themselves, because their license gives them rights not only to what was originally conveyed, but also to any improvements (and related developments, my opinion, only a totally new invention would be outside the scope of this, probably not a competing one.)

The people behind Industrial Heat work with many inventors. A vindictive release would harm trust in them, from the inventor side. What you would do personally reveals your own identity or proclivity. I would not assume that they relate to the world in the way you suggest. These are people working for the future of humanity, that's a goal behind Cherokee and behind Industrial Heat. I thought for a time that the one who funded Duncan at Texas Tech might have been Darden, there are some signature resemblances, but, no, the Gates signature is a much stronger match. Some people, when they make a lot of money, decide to make a difference for all of us, not just for themselves and their heirs.

I see in their behavior no intention to harm Rossi. However, they allowed him to construct his own doom. I think they, at least eventually, warned him. They certainly asked for things, pushing his boundaries, the best example is their request for independent experts to view the Validation test. They knew what they were dealing with, but they did not know, for sure, if he had a working secret. They had chosen to "crush the tests," and they stayed the course.

I've been reading the case documents over and over, and I find this when I put this kind of consciousness into a field: it becomes clear. There remain many mysteries, beginning with cold fusion itself. We do not know the mechanism. But ... we know what we can do to move into the future with it, and we are doing that.