Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

  • I expected Rossi to take his money and run. I figured he would go to Sweden, where he has already lined up a new group of people to defraud.


    I think you fundamentally misunderstand Rossi. I've never felt he was in this for the money. He had a successful business in the U.S. and a comfortable life before dropping it all to pursue his invention. On the other hand, I've always felt the folks behind IH were in it for the money.

  • @Shane,


    I view this whole affair much differently than Rossi. I am less concerned about the contractual issues at play and more concerned about whether the technology works or not. Rossi and his team are clearly focused on the contractual issues.


    It is almost as if Rossi takes for granted his personal knowledge that the technology works--that doesn't even seem to be a central focus in this fight, and that would be consistent with him having a surety of knowledge that it does work.


    Unfortunately for we outsiders, the evidence is still highly clouded, and therefore quite difficult to draw any kind of sound conclusions.

  • IHFB,


    IH's bringing potential investors to Doral, even after TD/Vaughn developed strong concerns that Rossi may be up to something bad, has always been a weak link in their defense that I did not see them adequately address in their testimony. Rossi has been hammering on that since the beginning.


    I can't find it right now, but in one of the recent filings there is a selection from JT Vaughn's deposition. In it, he is asked about a powerpoint presentation in an e-mail attachment from something like September 2015. This was after Murray had been rebuffed and they had presumably lost faith in Rossi. The attachment is a powerpoint that had been prepared by IH for a presentation to Chinese investors (presumably in China). In it they say they were able to get (IIRC) 30-40 x COP. Did anyone else come across that part? I can't seem to find it now...

    • Official Post

    Unfortunately for we outsiders, the evidence is still highly clouded, and therefore quite difficult to draw any kind of sound conclusions.


    IHFB,


    On that we will have to agree to disagree. I may tend to agree with you on some contractual issues, but when it comes to the heart of the matter -does his tech work as he claimed to IH, in his patents, and was Doral legit, to me it is a very clear and resounding *no* on all counts.


    There is a section in 254 I have to review later when I have time, but Rossi, in his defense, appears to say his own technology has always been in dispute, and not yet validated.

  • I think you fundamentally misunderstand Rossi. I've never felt he was in this for the money. He had a successful business in the U.S. and a comfortable life before dropping it all to pursue his invention. On the other hand, I've always felt the folks behind IH were in it for the money.


    Of course Rossi is in it for the money.

    There are many calling on Rossi to release his invention to the world to save lives. Rossi has chosen not to do this.

    Instead he has spent years going from one backer to the next. He now has $11 million dollars.


    A year ago he had three choices.

    He is not poor so he can now release his invention free and gain adulation, Nobel prize etc. Nope not not going to do that.

    He can do solid, indisputable demonstration of his invention and have businesses throwing money at him for the possibility of being a partner. Nope not going to do that.

    He can take IH to court to try to win a massive amount of money. That is the choice he made. That is the choice that does not require a demonstration of his fake invention and gives him a chance for lots of money.


    SO OF COURSE IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY!


    And if he gets the money it will likely close down IH and any funding of LENR that they are involved with.

  • And if he gets the money it will likely close down IH and any funding of LENR that they are involved with.


    In some way, I can sympathize with this sentiment. For those who have toiled long as LENR researchers with little funding, and who are now receiving some research-enabling morsels from IH, a loss to IH would be a huge disappointment. I suspect some of those researchers are lurkers or commenters here.


    But I take a broader view of the LENR field. The old ways and means are not of the future. LENR+ or nothing. We can't afford another 20 years of non-commercially viable laboratory curiosities. If it turns out to be Brilluoun, great. If BLP follows through with what appears to be some extraordinary recent advancements, fantastic. If Rossi's QuarkX is the solution, wonderful. If MFMP is able to confirm me356's approach, the best of all since it would be open.


    If IH wants to continue to throw money at non-commercially viable LENR, that is certainly their prerogative, but I don't endorse it and it doesn't excite me one iota.


  • No new technical stuff in 254. Exhibits are from depositions.

    I couldn't see an "IH Additional Facts" document in Abd's Index http://coldfusioncommunity.net…cket-and-case-files/#1701

  • When the following statement was released: "Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the
    results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success," I knew there was skullduggery at play, and that IH had just thrown an proverbial bomb onto the LENR community. And thus began my journey to follow every twist and turn of this case.



    That certainty, which you and a few others have, marks the difference in interpretation here.


    The issue is whether it is possible for a programme of tests of Rossi's stuff, done by an initially technically unsophisticated VC company, to generate encouraging results that lead to continued investment on Rossi but which are subsequently discovered to be in error.


    You view this as impossible. I view it as exactly what might happen particularly given the known characteristics of Rossi's tests - e.g. the way that Lugano was mismeasured so that at least one academic involved in it went on insisting it was correct. If you believe Levi every single Lugano-style test would be positive, including, most unfortunately as Darden tried to tell Rossi, a control. When should IH have stopped trying to see whether Rossi's stuff could be got to work? That is the real question.


    Throughout this affair IH can be accused of naivetee (originally, being not cautious enough in the face of apparently positive internal and external tests) and also of being too nice to Rossi. Rather than confront him and risk his likely going off in a huff (no-one can deny it would be likely) they keep a test going in the hope it might provide indisputable positive results. They should have realised Rossi might do what he did. But for them to write Rossi a formal letter saying that this was not the GPT would be seen by Rossi as a formal refusal to pay and he would probably go off in a huff. They were at that time still hoping that his stuff might come good. If it did, there would be no problem, and they could pay him anyway. If the device did not work Rossi would be disappointed but fully deserve this.


    If, in all of these circumstances, Rossi's clearly incorrect view that this was the GPT can be legally viewed as that because Rossi now says it is, and IH never explicitly told him in writing that it was not the GPT, we will see. Whether IH's tactical decision to give Rossi every chance and indulge his fantasy of a GPT in this way is moral people will come to their own conclusion about.


    That this is a possible reading of events you have to be very biassed to deny, as IHFB does.

  • @IHFB


    Around a year ago I was 50/50 on believing Rossi.


    The difference between us is I have had my wake up to Rossi moment.


    You still have yours to come.


    Whether Rossi wins or loses the court case will not prove either way if he has a working invention.


    If another year goes by and Rossi does not sell any product, or another two years, at what point will you lose your faith?


    I am sure there will be some that even if Rossi never proved his device or sold any would still stick with him. I like to think you are a bit smarter than that.


    Zeno


    By the way, I do value your persistence, you could go to ECW and fit in fine. Here you are a bit in the lion's den, so points for that.

  • But I take a broader view of the LENR field. The old ways and means are not of the future. LENR+ or nothing. We can't afford another 20 years of non-commercially viable laboratory curiosities. If it turns out to be Brilluoun, great. If BLP follows through with what appears to be some extraordinary recent advancements, fantastic. If Rossi's QuarkX is the solution, wonderful. If MFMP is able to confirm me356's approach, the best of all since it would be open.


    If IH wants to continue to throw money at non-commercially viable LENR, that is certainly their prerogative, but I don't endorse it and it doesn't excite me one iota.


    This is an incorrect view of the field. If LENR exists as real nuclear effect, then as soon as it is well understood it would be surprising for it not to lead to enormous commercial potential. If that takes 20 years, well, a new energy technology in 20 years time is still a big deal. And understanding real effects is something that science always manages, in the end.


    If you reckon the evidence for LENR is so slight that without clear proof it is highly unlikely to be real - well that makes you skeptical. A shame in that case that you only apply your skepticism to LENR, and not to Rossi's claims of LENR which are so much more deserving of skepticism.

  • Great conversation on JONP, the daily question:

    Quote

    Update?


    sickening answer:

    Quote

    ... on the way toward Sigma 5


    There can be only one... the Highlander, JPR!

  • On the other hand, I've always felt the folks behind IH were in it for the money.

    Of course they are in it for the money! They are venture capitalists.


    Seriously, what a stupid thing to say.


    Guy comes into a restaurant, sits down at a table, looks over a menu. IH Fanboy the waiter says: "I won't serve you! You are only here for the food."

  • Great conversation on JONP, the daily question:


    sickening answer:


    There can be only one... the Highlander, JPR!

    I truly do not understand how anyone could believe Rossi these days....


    We know really nothing about the Quarkx with absolutely no evidence of it's existence given except for two sources.

    1) Rossi says and the blurry blue photo that he posted.

    2) Some obscure comments from the lawsuit depositions.


    However, the lawsuit has CLEARLY stated that :


    1) Rossi has no new partner or customer. Yet he has stated he does with the Quarkx. He is continuing the same old pattern of lying here.

    2) Rossi stated that the Doral facility is his factory, so we know there is no big production line being made there. That the Doral facility had

    little to no true laboratory type equipment. This per the state inspectors deposition, that there was nothing but a couple of tables.

    3) For the past year, while Rossi posted that his "Team" was making advances, we know that it was only himself and even Fabiani had little to do

    with the Quarkx. Now that Fabiani is gone, WHO is this "team"? It is only Rossi of course!

    4) The whole "Sigma" story is just another meaningless diversion, a morsel to give the faithful to chew on while Rossi stretches out his fraud.

    Just like "Safety certifications" were in the past. It is all a diversion.


    After all, it still boils down to this:


    If Rossi wants money.... he can have ALL he wants. All he has to do is allow a true validation test of the eCat or Quarkx.


    If Rossi wants recognition (Nobel Prize).... he can be elevated to the status of Edison and Tesla. All he has to do is allow a true validation test of the eCat or Quarkx.


    If Rossi wants to help the poor and the planet... he can be compared to Sister Teresa! All he has to do is allow a true validation test of the eCat or Quarkx.


    Yet, what does he do? Fake eCat customer, fake Chief Engineer, fake eCat test, fake heat exchanger, fake production.

    And now he continues on with a fake QuarkX customer, fake Quarkx Test, and fake "Team". FAKE EVERYTHING!


    At least he is consistent!:|


    How can people believe ANYTHING he says? The answer is ...... They should not!


    Edit: I have to add. Some here have stated Rossi "made a mistake" in setting up fake JMP. What excuse can you give for him now? He is posting about partners and customers on JONP yet under oath, had to tell the truth that there is none! What do you supporters of Rossi say about his current partner, current customer, etc. etc.. We know they are fake and he continues to lie. Do you turn a blind eye to this? This is a serious question.

    Edited once, last by Bob ().

  • Yet, what does he do? Fake eCat customer, fake Chief Engineer, fake eCat test, fake heat exchanger, fake production.

    And now he continues on with a fake QuarkX customer, fake Quarkx Test, and fake "Team". FAKE EVERYTHING!


    And that's just recent history. It's been Rossi's 'normal operating mode' to lie for decades prior to the E-Cat farce:

    fake receipts for gold money laundering (convicted in Italy, served time in jail)

    fake process for 'waste-to-oil' in Petroldragon (no oil, but multi-million dollar cleanup by Italian Govt., and still the site is a hazardous and toxic area).

    fake 'Masters in Engineering' degree from fraudulent Kensington University*

    fake thermoelectric devices sold to the US Army (never delivered to spec.), made in a:

    fake thermoelectric device 'factory' that 'inconveniently' burned down


    *Rossi never took any classes because Kensington 'University' didn't have any engineering classes to offer - he paid them money and they signed off on his 'degree' when Rossi convinced them that his patent applications (all non-US at the time) were adequate 'degree-worthy' work (but of course, none of his patents actually worked). Kensington U. was a mail order degree mill in California until it was shut down for fraud. Rossi's highest 'earned' non-fraudulent degree was liberal arts degree (not technical) from Italy which is equivalent to a US bachelors degree. His highest fraudulent degree is MS (from Kensington). But he prefers to be called 'Dr. Rossi'.


    Rossi's been a bald(ing) liar for at least 3 decades.


    But some here insist that it is IH, not Rossi, who is slimy because these venture capitalists (with lot's of investing in environmental reclamation companies) are 'just in it for the money'.


    Truly a fascinating look into human behavior.

  • Unfortunately for we outsiders, the evidence is still highly clouded,

    No, it isn't. I have read about dozens of experiments. I have seen data from dozens of experiments. I have never seen one remotely as bad as this. I have never seen such a clear-cut, indisputable, outrageous fake data. Even Defkalion was less blatant. I saw that it was fake after looking over the numbers for 5 minutes. Anyone who fails to see that knows nothing about calorimetry, instruments, or experiments. I know several experts who looked at the 1-year test data. Every one of them agrees with Smith that the numbers are impossible and the instruments could not have measured heat, even in principle. There was no way to test steam quality, or even confirm there was any steam!


    If you find the evidence clouded, it is because you do not understand elementary physics. You demonstrated your ignorance when you said that a leak from the pipe produced steam. Of course it did. When pressurized water is above the boiling point for 1 atm, and you reduce the pressure to 1 atm, it boils. It cools and stops boiling. Reduce the pressure again and it will boil again. Put it in a vacuum and it will boil away completely.

  • So, Rossi is in the Doral building we all know now from the various pics. Who is with him now? The janitor, we know from the deposition? Is there really no one who lives in this part of Florida and could make a visit there :)



    @Bob, thanks for the good summaries on this forum. Would like to have you as a neighbour. And Barry West on the other side of my ground.

  • The old ways and means are not of the future. LENR+ or nothing.

    Oh horseshit. You and Peter Gluck say this. Neither of you knows the history of technology. The first radioactive samples produced a fraction of a watt, but the Curies knew they far exceeded the limits of chemical heat. The first fission reactor at U. Chicago produced a few watts but everyone knew it was a fission chain reaction capable of producing gigawatts. The size of the reaction is totally irrelevant. The only things that matter are understanding and control. If you have them, you can convert the whole world to cold fusion in a generation. Without them, you have nothing.


    LENR+ does not exist in any case. If you are counting on that, you count on a figment of Gluck's imagination, and a fraudulent illusion sold by Rossi.

  • If you believe Levi every single Lugano-style test would be positive, including, most unfortunately as Darden tried to tell Rossi, a control. When should IH have stopped trying to see whether Rossi's stuff could be got to work? That is the real question.

    I agree, that is the key question. As I said before, this is like drilling for oil. It can be hard to say when you have hit "suitcase rock" and it is time to give up, pack up, and go home. For me it would be the time you point to. When Darden tells Rossi the control produced as much apparent heat as the test sample, and Rossi refuses to acknowledge that, I would say it's over.


    The only thing I would consider after that would be for Rossi to hand over a single unit from the 1 MW reactor and have it tested by experts such as Murray, in NC. If he refused, I would have ended it. Perhaps I have a lower threshold than I.H. because I have seen many, many cold fusion claims fail.

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