Rossi vs. Darden developments - Part 2

  • I am not impressed with Tom Darden's hands on involvement with the E-Cat. He is out of his element despite his eloquent evaluation of what is happening. Ditto for Dewey. There should be technically competent and knowledgeable people evaluating LENR technology including Rossi's E-Cat IP. Outside of Murray I do not see any real engineering and scientific know-how within IH.


    I agree, the lack of early technical competency was glaring and costly. I was impressed with Darden's summary in the exhibit 1 because it did show a realistic mindset about research generally that was more sophisticated than I had assumed. But that kind of works both ways: if he was more sophisticated in his understanding, why didn't he bring in higher caliber technologists sooner? He did, apparently bring in Boeing - presumably they failed to find anything.


    But then, having worked in technical fields (coincidently, I actually worked for Boeing in a 'former life'), I've seen some startling incompetency amongst degreed engineering managers (think Dilbert and Peter principle). So unfortunately this is not uncommon.

  • Keep in mind that for IH even to bring on a technical guy with any kind of qualifications to help them out will have been extremely threatening to Rossi, knowing what we know, so IH will have had to proceed carefully in order not to alienate Rossi. Darden and Vaughn were not technical and so had little basis for pushing back when something felt fishy, and there were Levi and eventually the Swedish team corroborating Rossi's account of things. I would not be surprised if hints that a technical guy was coming onboard provided some of the motivation for Rossi to leave for Florida. Rossi started out as IH's "chief scientist." Then there was this subtle evolution in the relationship, after which he was no longer their chief scientist.


    If you do not have direct technical expertise and your network is mostly in something else (e.g., venture capital and remediation of brownfield land), you're jumping into the deep end of the pool to attempt to invest in a controversial technical field such as LENR. Darden and Vaughn may not have been wise in some key decisions they made early on, but I sympathize with them in the many difficulties they will have faced in trying to set out into a completely new field, one with which qualified professionals they might have approached will surely have been sensitive about associating their names too closely.

  • interested observer ,

    We already looked at a photo of the old blue container at the old facility.

    The new facility is much nicer looking.

    IH had a rather well-qualified student working for them, also.

    Even an unfortunate workplace safety inspection.

    These things are not super easy to find, but neither are they hard.

    They are doing things, and they are more than a nameplate office.

  • Darden et.al thought they were superior clever and that they could spare a lot of money by gathering the complete intellectual property with some amateurish chess moves. My feeling is, if you take greed into consideration, that both heads of Cherokee Investment had (maybe just for a single moment) lost all of their self-control and made wrong decisions, just because they are greedy!


    Greed, arrogance, and good intentions--the usual suspects!

  • A brief addendum to the Durapox-alumina plug story.

    The sealing members, 14, in the patent application I quoted from earlier, are also supposed to be made of Durapot 810. This is mentioned in the Lugano report (that the plug was a cylinder of alumina cement, in which was contained the thermocouple). So there is actually just the inner reactor tube made of alumina, and maybe the sealing cement. The cap, ribs, and even the plug are made of Durapot.


    Additionally, the reactor seems to have gained 100 grams in Lugano (even with the leads cut off), if Darden's comments are correct. I wonder if IH has an accurate weight recorded somewhere for the reactor before it left for Switzerland.

  • So there is actually just the inner reactor tube made of alumina, and maybe the sealing cement. The cap, ribs, and even the plug are made of Durapot.


    This conflicts with what Rossi has maintained over time, and reiterated today, that "the larger drums at the ends of the cylinder" (i.e., what you are calling the caps I believe), are the only part of the device made of Durapot. I could easily see how a miscommunication between T. Dameron and Dewey could have occurred. For example (hypothetical), "Yes Dewey, I made those things out of Durapot using my own hands, and look, I even still have some of it left right here" (without necessarily pointing out which specific things). Rossi talks with confidence about the materials used, and the analysis at a renown university backs him up. Remember, in times past, when there has been a discrepancy in a public battle between Rossi and Dewey (e.g., temperature data), remarkably, Rossi has turned out to be right.



    "Andrea Rossi


    March 10, 2017 at 8:25 AM



    Anonymous:


    The reactor tested in the Lugano experiment was made by pure Alumina. We used Durapox to make the two caps ( the larger drums at the ends of the cylinder of the reactor ), but these drums did not contain any charge: they just contained the cablings of the terminals. The thermocamera was focused only on the cylinder of the reactor, made by pure alumina, not on the lateral caps, made by Durapox. By the way: the material the cylinder was made of has been analyzed by the Professors and resulted to be pure Alumina, as reported.


    Warm Regards,


    A.R."


  • So I guess that means that the data for caps and rods is just made up...


    I don't see how you would draw that conclusion. It might be wrong, but why would it be made up? Perhaps they should have analyzed a sample from both the "caps" and the "rod" and adjusted their IR camera accordingly (assuming it even makes a significant difference between pure alumina and Durapot--for which at least one commentator here insists it doesn't).

  • What was made up was that total emissivity is used for the IR camera emissivity setting. The whole thing falls apart right there.


    One thermocouple, no matter how crappily attached, attached nevertheless to the reactor body would have been sufficient to immediately flag the high temperature readings. If it got to 1380 C or higher, the thermocouple should be melted, a good visual indicator.

  • One thermocouple, no matter how crappily attached, attached nevertheless to the reactor body would have been sufficient to immediately flag the high temperature readings.

    Even a spot check with such a 40 $ probe would have done the job:

    http://www.omega.co.uk/pptst/KHXL_NHXL.html


    Amazing, that nobody of the prestigious professors came up with the idea to perform a simple sanity check on the temperature measurement values they read from the IR thermometer.
    Amateurish?


  • Amazing, that nobody of the prestigious professors came up with the idea to perform a simple sanity check on the temperature measurement values they read from the IR thermometer.
    Amateurish?


    Shallow people, they were to have more experience.

    JoNP means Journal of Null-Physics (the house of hoax, quackery, junk and psychopathological science).

  • I take a slightly different perspective on this point. I think Rossi filed this under court seal because some of the materials were marked confidential by IH. There is no good reason, in my mind, why Rossi would not want this information out and well-known by all.


    This is an extraordinary reading of facts, contrary to the reason that the Court documents state.


    One thing we forget here is that there are two suits in play.


    The first, Rossi's claim for $89M + damages, was looking effectively lost a long time ago. I think there is a decent chance of a Summary Judgement because Rossi has shown not one scrap of evidence that IH ever considered this to be the GPT, and the only direct communications released to Court between him and IH bear out the non-GPT meme. The fact that Rossi on his blog, and no doubt to engineers on site, talks continually about the test as though it is what he wants it to be, a chance at $89M, is evidence only of Rossi's willingness to believe falsehoods that accord with his wishes. (Other examples: Nobel Prize candidacy, his reactors work, etc). For IH defence of this suit Lugano seems pretty irrelevant.


    The second, IH's counter-claim against Rossi for fraud, looks much more difficult for them to win. The burden of proof is different and Rossi's manifest delusion tends, here, to help him. Eccentric inventors are not considered fraudulent. Still IH have a decent chance at this because Rossi's misdirections and outright lies are plain so far in the evidence. For this second suit whether Rossi (and friends?) deliberately spoofed Lugano is relevant. Rossi's paranoia will make him sensitive to the possibility that IH are "out to get him" in this area as indeed I'd expect they are.


    Rossi would have to be strange indeed to want these facts exposed: but for him I guess a higher imperative will be to prevent IH from investigating the people he has had close relationships with.

  • If I read Darden's status email correctly both Rossi and Fabiani were to be present for the 3rd so called 'independent' test (Lugano) the entire time with the other professors showing up on occasion. This is getting to be too much.

    I feel fooled if it is confirmed as I defended the test based on the limited presence of Rossi's team...

    It have to be confirmed, because it is a huge, not only about the independence of the test, but even more on the ethic of the test team.

    Additionally, the reactor seems to have gained 100 grams in Lugano (even with the leads cut off), if Darden's comments are correct. I wonder if IH has an accurate weight recorded somewhere for the reactor before it left for Switzerland.

    It is an interesting remark, to be confirmed.

    If confirmed it may give credibility to some claim the reactor was painted, covered, or filled, in a way that is not reported.



    3) We also have the UNSWORN declaration (NOT affidavit) of Levi (contrary to IHFB's incorrect characterization of 'sworn' - though he does 'declare' in the end, this does not hold legal weight as is, I believe), that says: "It is my personal belief that Mr. [Uzi] Sha was offering to pay me in order to recant my support for the results contained in the Lugano Report." and in summary "As a result of this telephone conversation and the previous conversations... I feel harassed, threatened and coerced into doing something that I do not wish to do."


    I feel Levi's emotion, awkward. If I had make a so clear error, or simply be afraid to have done so, I would take such proposal differently, more like the occasion to save my honour, by confirming or correcting, my position.


    Since long I don't understand, after MFMP and many, bashed the Lugano report with credible claims, that Levi's team did not make new test with better protocol...

    If they believe in their work, they should be confident.

    If they are unsure, they should be demanding for such test...


    Maybe am I naive when I don't understand.


    2 shade of grey may apply.

  • Since long I don't understand, after MFMP and many, bashed the Lugano report with credible claims, that Levi's team did not make new test with better protocol...

    If they believe in their work, they should be confident.


    I do remember that the team of professors was supposed to make an independent replication of their work. Photos made by Parkhomov after visiting ICCF19 of a (reportedly) empty reactor ready to be tested in Bologna have been showed too.

  • I do remember that the team of professors was supposed to make an independent replication of their work. Photos made by Parkhomov after visiting ICCF19 of a (reportedly) empty reactor ready to be tested in Bologna have been showed too.


    This is a case where result selection definitely applies, since they have never formally admitted to be doing this. You can be sure that if they had clear positive results they would make this known. What we cannot know is what, if any, additional experiments they performed with negative results.

  • Quote

    Anonymous
    February 21, 2017 at 7:59 AM

    Dear Dr Andrea Rossi,


    In the reactor of Lugano the reactor was made by Durapox?

    So I guess that means that the data for caps and rods is just made up...


    Right, and amazingly when you look at the data only for the caps, it doesn't appear that there is excess heat (at least the best I can do on the stingy data release by the professors). Levi can go on about imaginary conspiracies, but can't imagine that he could have made a mistake or been scammed by AR!


    Without even going through the more technical arguments, the temperature of the diseased sealant caps (Durapox) appear to refute excess heat.

  • There were none. Unibo (at the highest levels) told all concerned 'no more talk of LENR, no cash for related equipment, stay away'.


    That's unfortunate. According to Mats Lewan and Parkhomov in April 2015 (when the news broke) they were in the process of performing calibrations, with plans of performing the loaded test in May within that year. No more news since.


    Parkhomov Reports on ICCF-19, Meeting with Lugano Testers (Who are Also Replicating) (2015-04-18)

    Parkhomov visits Levi, discuss with Hoistad and Peterson, and they have a device that they will show mid-may (2015-04-18)

    Доклад на ICCF19 А.Г. Пархомова (2015-04-18)

    ICCF19 OVER, BUT HAS ECHO AND IMPACT (2015-04-18)

    Пархомов_ICCF19_Падуя2015.pdf (2015-05-29)



  • I feel fooled if it is confirmed [that Rossi and Fabiani were present at the Lugano facility the entire time, and the professors showed up intermittently] as I defended the test based on the limited presence of Rossi's team...

    It have to be confirmed, because it is a huge, not only about the independence of the test, but even more on the ethic of the test team.


    I also think this is an important point. The Lugano test was so interesting because it appeared to be independent, and the writeup makes it out as such, describing the minimal intervention of Rossi at the beginning and end of the test, and saying that he stepped back from it for the remainder of it. But if Rossi and Fabiani were there every day, and the professors were not, this means that once more we will have had to place trust in Rossi not to interfere. Trust that we would not have afforded him at the time the report came out. Was the Lugano test for us in the peanut gallery, and do our feelings about it matter? Presumably not. But one wonders why, at any rate, it was released to the public.


    The professors were operating in the mode of researchers collaborating with other researchers on an experiment, where a great amount of trust is placed in all of the parties to be forthright. But they were dealing with a wily inventor who had up to then gone to great efforts to control the circumstances of his demos in the manner of a showman. The professors, then, if the new detail is correct, lent their name to a report that assumes the best in people, relying on the honor system when it was not warranted. That was poor judgment on their part. There were the video cameras that were running, so maybe that's something.


    Speculation: we now have Levi, seeing the Lugano test and what followed it primarily through the lense of a battle between Rossi and his erstwhile funders, strongly attached to the report's conclusions and unwilling to revisit them, and reassured in their soundness by immediate colleagues; and the Swedes, on the fence about the whole thing and hoping not to become party to a lawsuit worth millions of dollars. I know the feeling of not wanting to step into a lawsuit and can sympathize with them if this is what is going on in their heads. People I know have sued or threatened to sue one another and wanted me to do something for them, and on those occasions I have very much not wanted to get involved. This could potentially explain their silence on the report as much as anything (e.g., NDAs).

  • problems is when you call friends to buy tickets...

    I did. You can understand why recent facts leaked make me feel ... aching. (I don't say where).


    I will have to say sorry to some skeptics for my swamp-founded arguments.

    Sure, LENR works (this made me over-confident), but the most popular claims are based on swampy foundations.

    You can understand that today for me PdD is a safer harbor. Buildings are less brillant, but it is build on rock, on scientific method.

  • I still don't fully understand the insertion of the Lugano test. But I guess it has served the purpose of misdirection from the matters of GPT and the test in Doral. Perhaps that is the reason Rossi did it : forget the important stuff, look over there.

  • I still don't fully understand the insertion of the Lugano test. But I guess it has served the purpose of misdirection from the matters of GPT and the test in Doral. Perhaps that is the reason Rossi did it : forget the important stuff, look over there.


    I think it just shows that Rossi has nothing. So he's throwing 'nothing' at the wall and hoping it sticks. Who knows, maybe he'll get lucky and get a judge to review Darden's emails and find some dirt.


    That seems to be his best hope for anything from IH. Other than that, he's forced to try to hang on to limiting how much he ends up having to send to IH.


    But it must be [ahem] interesting to be a lawyer on Rossi's legal team, given his grandiose, delusional and paranoid perspective.

  • If it got to 1380 C or higher, the thermocouple should be melted, a good visual indicator.

    As I have pointed out, the color was a good visual indicator. Assuming the photo colors are not distorted, and the photos were taken when the reactor was at peak temperature, the temperature was around 950 deg C. Granted, those assumptions may be wrong, but I asked the authors about them and they never responded. I take a non-response to mean: "yes & yes, and we don't want to talk about it."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…e_range_550_-_1300_C).svg

  • I still don't fully understand the insertion of the Lugano test. But I guess it has served the purpose of misdirection from the matters of GPT and the test in Doral. Perhaps that is the reason Rossi did it : forget the important stuff, look over there.


    I don't really understand it either. I would much rather know whether the flow meter was installed on a downward grade gravity-fed return pipe that was only partially full, as Jed has claimed (based on things he was told).


    Bear in mind, however, that Dewey is largely responsible for insertion of the Lugano test, with his pet Durapot theory. In fact, his parting comment was on this very issue!