EMDrive: Newton's Laws can be "bypassed"?

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

Affirming the consequent[edit]

Main article: Affirming the consequent

Any argument that takes the following form is a non sequitur:

1. If A is true, then B is true.
2. B is true.
3. Therefore, A is true.

Even if the premise and conclusion are both true, the conclusion is not a necessary consequence of the premise. This sort of non sequitur is also called affirming the consequent.

An example of affirming the consequent would be:

1. If an idea is true (A), then it must be crazy. (B)
2. An idea is crazy. (B)
3. Therefore, the idea is true. (A)

It is not the logical-mathematical path that leads to discoveries in physics, but the philosophical-metaphysical path, the play of crazy imagination.

Read, for example, about the “Einstein arc” or E. Schrödinger:

“...Metaphysics is not part of the building of science itself, but is rather like wooden scaffolding, which cannot be dispensed with when constructing the building. Perhaps it is even permissible to say: metaphysics turns into physics in the process of development...”

Analogy of Shawyer's EMDrive should work also on water surface. You can imagine the resonator like the boat without bottom (bottomless wooden washtub so to say), which is floating at the water surface. From this perspective the EMDrive behaves like the conical barrier, floating at the water surface. Try to imagine, we are doing ripples & splashes inside this barrier, which are bouncing back and forth, but because they cannot leave the barrier, they wouldn't spread into outside. If we would neglect the (existence of) underwater, then the floating barrier couldn't propagate in any direction in similar way, like the classical physics predicts for EMDrive in vacuum. But the surface ripples also induce an underwater sound waves, which can escape beneath the barrier, and because it's wider at one end, the sound wave pressure will push it into reactive motion in opposite direction. The underwater sound waves also manifest itself like tiny turbulences at the water surface, which are speeding up the surface wave spreading.

According to this analogy what propels the EMDrive forward is the stream of scalar waves/dark matter particles, generated with magnetic turbulence from vacuum inside the resonator. It's invisible noise detectable only be SQUIDs and similar magnetic field detectors, but it still curves the space-time and as such it exhibits inertial mass. It can be therefore interpreted like the sparse worm hole and also volume area of negative energy in warp drive model of EMDrive. It generates mass density gradient (actually artificial gravity field) inside the resonator, which would propel the EMDrive forward. The scalar waves do behave like bubbles or turbulence of vacuum and the light should propagate faster in this environment, which can be detected by fringe shift of White–Juday interferometer.

In this connection it may be significant that, if the photons would be massless, they should always propagate with speed of light, isn't it true? But the experiments show us, it's not always true - the photons can be slowed down by their polarization (1, 2). The reason of this behavior is, the photons can gain the mass from their polarization (spin) - more info. Intuitively speaking, the energy introduced into their spin angular momentum travels together with photon and it doesn't depend on its wavelength with compare to intrinsic momentum of photons. So it behaves like the energy gaining rest mass of photons and it gives the photons ability to annihilate it during mutual interaction under violation of Newtonian laws.

See also: Photon mass drag and the momentum of light in a medium, Is the frustum EM Drive4 decelerating light for propellantless propulsion?

LIquid waves are circular when EM waves are perpendicular, in this way, what should be this impact on your demo ?

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Analogy of Shawyer's EMDrive should work also on water surface. You can imagine the resonator like the boat without bottom (bottomless wooden washtub so to say), which is floating at the water surface. From this perspective the EMDrive behaves like the conical barrier, floating at the water surface. Try to imagine, we are doing ripples & splashes inside this barrier, which are bouncing back and forth, but because they cannot leave the barrier, they wouldn't spread into outside. If we would neglect the (existence of) underwater, then the floating barrier couldn't propagate in any direction in similar way, like the classical physics predicts for EMDrive in vacuum. But the surface ripples also induce an underwater sound waves, which can escape beneath the barrier, and because it's wider at one end, the sound wave pressure will push it into reactive motion in opposite direction. The underwater sound waves also manifest itself like tiny turbulences at the water surface, which are speeding up the surface wave spreading.

According to this analogy what propels the EMDrive forward is the stream of scalar waves/dark matter particles, generated with magnetic turbulence from vacuum inside the resonator. It's invisible noise detectable only be SQUIDs and similar magnetic field detectors, but it still curves the space-time and as such it exhibits inertial mass. It can be therefore interpreted like the sparse worm hole and also volume area of negative energy in warp drive model of EMDrive. It generates mass density gradient (actually artificial gravity field) inside the resonator, which would propel the EMDrive forward. The scalar waves do behave like bubbles or turbulence of vacuum and the light should propagate faster in this environment, which can be detected by fringe shift of White–Juday interferometer.

In this connection it may be significant that, if the photons would be massless, they should always propagate with speed of light, isn't it true? But the experiments show us, it's not always true - the photons can be slowed down by their polarization (1, 2). The reason of this behavior is, the photons can gain the mass from their polarization (spin) - more info. Intuitively speaking, the energy introduced into their spin angular momentum travels together with photon and it doesn't depend on its wavelength with compare to intrinsic momentum of photons. So it behaves like the energy gaining rest mass of photons and it gives the photons ability to annihilate it during mutual interaction under violation of Newtonian laws.

See also: Photon mass drag and the momentum of light in a medium, Is the frustum EM Drive4 decelerating light for propellantless propulsion?

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Quote from Wyttenbach

I just want to remind people that the cavity EM drive is no mystery as all fields of non point source show divergence forces that are tangential to the main field axes. So the thrust is just the reflexion force issued by the tangential wave part. The other fact is: This is a very dumb way to produce thrust as divergence forces are second order at best and in gravity action shine up at the 5th digit. So you basically waste 10'000x energy for 1 unit of thrust.

With a clever mirror you could reverse this ratio...then the thrust would be proportional to the total wave energy.

Just a few months ago, I contacted Mr. Shawyer asking for any update about the EMDrive, and he answered personally, telling me about his forthcoming book which is now published. If you have a design in mind with the clever mirror, why not contact him about it directly?

sprltd@emdrive.com

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

Affirming the consequent[edit]

Main article: Affirming the consequent

Any argument that takes the following form is a non sequitur:

1. If A is true, then B is true.
2. B is true.
3. Therefore, A is true.

Even if the premise and conclusion are both true, the conclusion is not a necessary consequence of the premise. This sort of non sequitur is also called affirming the consequent.

An example of affirming the consequent would be:

1. If an idea is true (A), then it must be crazy. (B)
2. An idea is crazy. (B)
3. Therefore, the idea is true. (A)

At risk of derailing the thread, but based on the above:

Each possible configuration of the universe and everything in it can be modelled as a chess game scenario. The new paradigm will be breached when when discover the mathematical translation that allows us to find the chess game portion that represents the functional LENR paradise

Thank you.

I am sorry that I cannot take questions on this issue at this time

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

Just a few months ago, I contacted Mr. Shawyer asking for any update about the EMDrive, and he answered personally, telling me about his forthcoming book which is now published. If you have a design in mind with the clever mirror, why not contact him about it directly?

sprltd@emdrive.com

In his original paper Shawyer fell back on photon's in his distorted resonator rather than electromagnetic waves. Then he promptly forgot that many reflections would occur and that the angle of reflection would equal the angle of incidence each time. And each time momentum would be transfered and a small kick would occur. Add up all the kicks and you get a net result.

Also, microwave energy is constantly fed into the device and dissipated causing heating which could result in hot spots. These hot spots will emit infrared photon's which would carry momentum, again maybe giving a net kick to the structure. So, there are two effects competing.

If you believe the effect is real then from an engineering standpoint the task is to optimize the effect. As I recall Shawyer feeds the microwave energy in from below at right angles to the structure's axis. One could modify the structure and the angle or place by which energy is introduced.

There is nothing magical about the processes governing this supposed EM drive. Just some basic physics.

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Quote from sam12

Tim Ventura interviews Charles Buhler.

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Quote from Frogfall

https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Charles+Raymond+Buhler%2c+IV

And:

- https://patents.google.com/patent/US11511891B2/en and https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2020159603A2/en

- https://www.nextbigfuture.com/…pulsion-breakthrough.html

- Slide deck here: https://docs.google.com/presen…3Mdmm3tY/edit#slide=id.p1

(around the 1 hour mark)

What are people's opinions about this? It's not quite like the EMDrive.

The first experiments seemed rather simple (see some slides from the slide deck linked above).

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

If you have a design in mind with the clever mirror, why not contact him about it directly?

Any direct sender antenna would be superior....

The believe originally was that one (EM drive) could harvest so "called free" vacuum energy. This "vacuum energy" is an invention of the clueless standard model church of physics that had no idea why inside the strong proton field (CERN) e+/- pairs can be created. But from SOP we know that the electron is a resonance of the proton...

Of course we all would be very delighted to see some surprises but as long as physicists do not even understand the most simple problems they also will miss this...

Quote from Cydonia

LIquid waves are circular when EM waves are perpendicular

Do you mean "transverse"? Both water ripples, both light waves are transverse waves. Scalar waves of Nicola Tesla and underwater sound waves are longitudinal waves.

Water waves are moving like this:

onde eau - Google Suche

EM waves are moving as perpendicualr zig zag:

perpendicular zig zag waves - Google Suche

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Do you mean "transverse"? Both water ripples, both light waves are transverse waves. Scalar waves of Nicola Tesla and underwater sound waves are longitudinal waves.

Light waves spread like ripples in jelly or foam - when you squeeze it in one direction, then it expands in another, perpendicular one. But the plane of wiggling can still rotate, which gives spin to photons. Speed of light in vacuum is constant, therefore if light wave rotates, it propagates a bit slower into account of orbital motion. Therefore the photon with spin propagates slower than photon, which doesn't rotate. Therefore it propagates like massive particles with internal energy corresponding the inertia/momentum of internal orbital motion of light wave. During bouncing of light wave inside of EMDrive rezonator under Brewster angle the light wave gets polarized and it gains spin. Therefore the photons with bounce from internal walls are heavier than those, which arrive to it. This change of photon inertia must be thus compensated by change of momentum of EM Drive frustrum.

This theory also explains results of White–Juday warp-field interferometer in proximity of EMDrive. When photons bounce from walls of EMDrive, then their spin abruptly changes direction but their momentum can not disappear due to Noether theorem. The rotation of vacuum passes the wall and it continues further in form of magnetic turbulence of vacuum like so called warp field. This warp field increases the speed of light waves in similar way, like turbulent water speeds up the propagation of surface ripples on water and the change in speed of light can be detected with interferometer. Therefore the EMDrive behaves like reactive engine of sort - it just ejects turbulent vacuum like jellyfish instead of stream of particles. It's dark matter generator in essence. This stream could be also detected by various scalar wave detectors, which would also detect dark matter.

Quote from Wyttenbach

Any direct sender antenna would be superior....

The believe originally was that one (EM drive) could harvest so "called free" vacuum energy. This "vacuum energy" is an invention of the clueless standard model church of physics that had no idea why inside the strong proton field (CERN) e+/- pairs can be created. But from SOP we know that the electron is a resonance of the proton...

Of course we all would be very delighted to see some surprises but as long as physicists do not even understand the most simple problems they also will miss this...

Once again, why not contact Shawyer with your ideas, rather than just posting here? I believe he will answer you.

In terms of inventions, a functional reactionless drive is long-term more important than functioning LENR, as it would allow us leaving the solar system.

That will be impossible without it. Send him an email with your ideas.

sprltd@emdrive.com

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Light waves spread like ripples in jelly or foam - when you squeeze it in one direction, then it expands in another, perpendicular one. But the plane of wiggling can still rotate, which gives spin to photons. Speed of light in vacuum is constant, therefore if light wave rotates, it propagates a bit slower into account of orbital motion. Therefore the photon with spin propagates slower than photon, which doesn't rotate. Therefore it propagates like massive particles with internal energy corresponding the inertia/momentum of internal orbital motion of light wave. During bouncing of light wave inside of EMDrive rezonator under Brewster angle the light wave gets polarized and it gains spin. Therefore the photons with bounce from internal walls are heavier than those, which arrive to it. This change of photon inertia must be thus compensated by change of momentum of EM Drive frustrum.

Interesting but I am not sure I believe it. Under this theory the photons would keep bouncing and keep gaining weight forever. Equal numbers bounce off the other side.

Why do none of these arguments discuss conservation of momentum in a closed system? Well, some do discuss it, escaping neutrinos etc. but none of these amount to enough momentum.

If the EM drive is to work, I think it must have something to do with pushing against something, ex. ether.

There are some interesting studies about slower photons though. (I don't have the full paper).

Spatially structured photons that travel in free space slower than the speed of light | Science

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

Once again, why not contact Shawyer with your ideas, rather than just posting here? I believe he will answer you.

In terms of inventions, a functional reactionless drive is long-term more important than functioning LENR, as it would allow us leaving the solar system.

That will be impossible without it. Send him an email with your ideas.

sprltd@emdrive.com

Once again: Roger Scheuer's jetless engine is a cold fusion generator LENR!

Quote from Aleksandr Nikitin

Once again: Roger Scheuer's jetless engine is a cold fusion generator LENR!

Keep it simple: jet engine + LENR = increased jet engine thrust.

Nor me not sure at all to belive in it.. However youspoke about the "ether" concept that Einstein also didn't believed in it ?

Good or bad, difficult to know... Always difficult to consider the long range interaction of gravity even it apparently it was the lower force... For sure for humand mind filling the empty space by something as an ether remains an easy way for our too small brain, no ?

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

Interesting but I am not sure I believe it. Under this theory the photons would keep bouncing and keep gaining weight forever. Equal numbers bounce off the other side.

Why do none of these arguments discuss conservation of momentum in a closed system? Well, some do discuss it, escaping neutrinos etc. but none of these amount to enough momentum.

If the EM drive is to work, I think it must have something to do with pushing against something, ex. ether.

There are some interesting studies about slower photons though. (I don't have the full paper).

Spatially structured photons that travel in free space slower than the speed of light | Science

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

Under this theory the photons would keep bouncing and keep gaining weight forever.

This theory doesn't care how many times the photons bounce from walls, only few bounces are needed for to suffice some thrust. The more bounces, the better energy efficiency indeed.

Quote from PhysicsForDummies

Equal numbers bounce off the other side.

But only conical side provides the Brewster angle, polarization and spin during bouncing. The thrust is generated by conical shape, not by flat walls of EMDrive and the polarization of photons occurs during their bouncing which happens in one direction only. Bouncing of photons from flat side doesn't generate thrust, the ratio of flat sides area thus doesn't matter in this model.

Quote from Cydonia

Nor me not sure at all to belive in it.. However youspoke about the "ether" concept that Einstein also didn't believed in it ?

Einstein didn't actually dismiss aether in his Leyden lecture - he was just apparently clueless about it, because concept of superfluid wasn't know that time. I realized that luminiferous aether concept doesn't work when we consider it sparse gas PERVADING space - but it may work if we consider it very dense environment FORMING the space instead. I.e when spacetime behaves like water surface - not like the underwater or gas above water surface. Which is why I model EMDrive with box floating on water surface, where portion of energy in form of underwater turbulence can leak into an outside through underwater - i.e. via extradimensions of water surface so to say.

Yes, your thoughts make sense but i have no special hability to be comfortable to play beyond 3D even it should be the way.

About the EM drive i would like to know if we have used 2 coaxial magnetrons to initiate the microwave, that could happen ?

yes, what could happen if we do something as a beat regarding 2 close waves ?

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Einstein didn't actually dismiss aether in his Leyden lecture - he was just apparently clueless about it, because concept of superfluid wasn't know that time. I realized that luminiferous aether concept doesn't work when we consider it sparse gas PERVADING space - but it may work if we consider it very dense environment FORMING the space instead. I.e when spacetime behaves like water surface - not like the underwater or gas above water surface. Which is why I model EMDrive with box floating on water surface, where portion of energy in form of underwater turbulence can leak into an outside through underwater - i.e. via extradimensions of water surface so to say.