Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion

Quote from Alan Smith

Politics will NOT be discussed in this forum. Just a reminder.

Okay, so you are saying that it would be irrelevant, out of line, and just plain unacceptable for me to mention the New York Post headline yesterday:

BEZOS EXPOSES PECKER *

So I won't mention it.

Apophasis again!

This rivals the all-time best New York Post headline:

HEADLESS BODY IN TOPLESS BAR

* For those who don't follow American politics, see: https://www.theguardian.com/te…uirer-amazon-david-pecker

Well, I can reproduce some at least of Rossi's claims.

I take an arc lamp - for the sake of argument, a deuterium lamp - and its appropriate power supply.

I turn it on - after a brief warm-up, high power is temporarily supplied, and the arc is struck. After that, the arc is maintained by a relatively small current - tens to low hundreds mA.

From the subjective colour of that arc (NOT that I'm looking at t with the naked eye! - I value my eyesight), Wit's a bluish white. With spectrometry, and treating that arc as a black body, I can determine that its temperature, based on its peak spectral output, appears to be, yes, something over 7,000 K. (conventionally known as "cool white")

It gets better. If I (or a non-too-bright assistant) touches the quartz envelope of that lamp, there is badly burnt skin - it is very hot! It is not, however anything like as hot as the arc APPEARS to be, or the quartz would melt.

So far so good. I have a hot-looking arc, and a hot-feeling lamp, running on a low maintenance current

What I will NOT be able to do, however, is to confirm the "mathematical claim" of 22 kW heat output by heat flow measurements.

I could leave that lamp burning in a cold warehouse for as long as it lasted. No-one would begin to feel warm.

OTOH, I could ship in my domestic 24kW condensing gas-fired boiler, some pipes and radiators, and things would probably warm up a bit ( depending on warehouse dimensions, temperature differential between inside and outside, insulation, and draughtproofing.)

So far, so good. I, like Rossi have a hot arc (temperature calculated from known physics); the arc running at a few watts power measured; and a hot envelope around that arc.

This is where the problems begin. The arc must be in thermal equilibrium with its surroundings - it is burning steadily. The envelope containing that arc,is with, say 1 cm of the arc itself. Now, I think I'm right in saying that the most refractory transparent material known is fused quartz, which softens at c. 1680 deg C

Since the amp envelope is not turning to a molten blob, we know that the effective temperature of the whole device is less than 1680 deg C.

"Ah" you say. "But these devices are cooled - the heat is removed"

"Right!" I say. "But you can buy off the shelf an arc lamp with an arc of around the same temperature as Rossi's, calculated in the same way, and the only cooling is air-cooling, possibly fan-assisted. In no way can tens of kW of heat be removed"

So there's the challenge for Rossi-Replicators. Crowd fund whatever arc lamp and power supply you deem fit, and you will easily get an arc maintained by a few watts of power, which you will be able to show by Rossi's calculations to have a temperature of 6-8,000 K

Your challenge is to extract 22 kW heat from it, using whatever method of heat exchange you can find or invent.

Forza ragazzi!!

Wow. This is so entertaining. Thanks Kevmo for good Troll hunting! As the ancient story goes; when Trolls are brought out into the open - they turn into stones and lightning makes their heads explode!

Quote from Nigel Appleton

So there's the challenge for Rossi-Replicators. Crowd fund whatever arc lamp and power supply you deem fit, and you will easily get an arc maintained by a few watts of power, which you will be able to show by Rossi's calculations to have a temperature of 6-8,000 K

Nigel Appleton You make some simple mistakes:

Modern arc lamps have an current/light conversion efficiency above 50%. Thus 50% -the light! - passes the quartz without heating it. If somebody claims the peek of the radiation is in the UV range then even more passes without directly heating the quartz device. Such (street-) lamps are rated a some 100 Watts and need no active cooling if the surface is large enough.

But as we know AR being an Italian that always multiplies his real device output/size by a factor of 2-4... With much much goodwill may be 4-5 keV could work out for a plasma tube of his tubes size.

I rarely if ever approve of banning but one valid criterion is the occupation of a lot of space with irrelevant unfocused verbiage (or sometimes people put in blank space) which makes the forum very difficult to follow for the average reader. Shane D. seems to think there is some value in the incoherent and often offensive nonsense posted by @[email protected] . I'm curious what that value is, Shane.

There is nothing worthwhile to counter. More so for anyone who has actually followed and understood Rossi's criminal past and complete lack of provable achievements ever.

Who’s bright idea was it to let this loon back in?

Next up, Timo Yalhainen...

Maybe we should send a petition to the “Florida Dept. of Fraud”.

One to the USPTO also, for the climatizing domestic reactor (part of the Doral Plant, still installed) claimed to be proof of use of the Cat and Ball in support of the trademark application.

“Verified statements are required

Filing an application with the USPTO starts a legal proceeding regarding your trademark or service mark. Therefore assurances or other statements made in your application must be truthful and made with knowledge of the penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States. So, verifying a statement means that you are making a statement that is sworn to, made under oath or in a notarized affidavit, or with a written and signed declaration that states, essentially, that you have been warned about the legal consequences of making willful false statements in any document filed with us.

For more information about verification, see 37 C.F.R. §§2.2(n), 2.20, 2.33, 2.76(b)(1), 2.88(b)(1), 2.193(e)(1) and TMEP §§804.01, 1104.08, 1109.06.

https://www.myfloridacfo.com/d…/consumers/fraudscams.htm

https://www.myfloridacfo.com/S…itiatives/Protection.aspx

Quote from seven_of_twenty

I rarely if ever approve of banning but one valid criterion is the occupation of a lot of space with irrelevant unfocused verbiage (or sometimes people put in blank space) which makes the forum very difficult to follow for the average reader.

Just block him. Hover over the name and click on the "Block" icon.

I was getting to the point where I was going to block him... But then he at least learned how to use the quote function correctly. After that I figured he might be able to learn other things.

Quote from Wyttenbach

Nigel Appleton You make some simple mistakes:

Modern arc lamps have an current/light conversion efficiency above 50%. Thus 50% -the light! - passes the quartz without heating it. If somebody claims the peek of the radiation is in the UV range then even more passes without directly heating the quartz device. Such (street-) lamps are rated a some 100 Watts and need no active cooling if the surface is large enough.

But as we know AR being an Italian that always multiplies his real device output/size by a factor of 2-4... With much much goodwill may be 4-5 keV could work out for a plasma tube of his tubes size.

Indeed. My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Nevertheless, the basis of Rossi's SK "claims" and of the "maths" "supporting" them is this arc-like doodad wherein he calculated the temperature of c. 8000K.

Whatever magic elements he may be cooking up in there, whatever radiation-free transmutations he may in the future claim, starts with a radiating flapdoodle at 8000K.

Now, IF he is getting 20+kW out of it, a question is how he is capturing all that radiated energy. Much of it would seem to be in UV and visible light at wavelengths passing through the envelope, and I'm willing to accept that there would be a whole lot more at longer wavelengths.

He has, I think, hinted at a super-efficient heat exchanger ( well, he's an expert, innit?), but no details.

The fact remains, we can easily produce an arc or body whose temperature calculated by the Rossi method is ~8000K, and which is maintained at that temperature by a few watts of electricity, (and this can be done with off-the shelf components). It should be almost as trivial to whop up an enclosure for it which is also a heat exchanger - say a water-jacket made of a lovely black anodised aluminium- which would capture (virtually) ALL the wavelengths. Then if water is made to flow through the device we can oh! so easily measure inlet and outlet temperatures, and do the calculations.

Or - why is the production of an arc with a temperature of ~8000K NOT a reproduction of the ecatSK?

@[email protected]

I'm delighted to answer your challenge made amidst your very many posts above: specifically to answer line by line your arguments. I'll do this by replying to your helpful reply to my statement above. After which you wrote a large number of less helpful posts.

Your reply was helpful because it indicates your thought processes and hence where you went wrong. Others have also corrected this, but you have not taken those points. I'm hoping this will make it clearer for you.

In the text below my point is italic, your reply in bold.

I'd address his contrafactual interpretation of Rossi's attempt to sue IH. Rossi, about to be given $100M if he could get his e-cats to work, decided to sue IH.

***Bullsh***, er, I mean nonsense. He had an independent 3rd party report in hand that said the devices work, as per the agreement.

IH needed to settle because the judge would have treated that independent third party report as a... wait for it.... third party report.

IH's contention, backed up by sworn evidence from Darden and others, is that the IH devices never worked, but for some time they were deceived by Rossi's measurement method which showed X3 or more false positive. We know now BTW from many independent analyses both empirical and analytical that the Lugano power measurement method advocated by Levi and Rossi can do this. Levi was plainly wrong. IH claim they detected this for sure only when noticing that a control reactor measured the same as active ones when run as part of a batch under identical conditions. IH then called Rossi in to help, thinking they had made some mistake, and Rossi became angry and then refused to help get anything to work. You need to read the detailed statements from IH, and compare that with what Rossi says. Even if Rossi were not a self-confessed liar the lack of detailed counter to IH detail here is telling. As is the fact that IH statements are made under oath, would obviously be challenged in Trial leading to Perjury accusation against Darden if he is not believed. A big deal.

IH also had documents showing that they did not care about the test and would happily give Rossi his $100M if they got working reactors (as the falsely measured reactors appeared to work) out of it. Such reactors, stable, with indefinite X3 output power, even without further development could be commercialised and IH had a plan for that. They had no interest in treating Rossi badly. True, they did not trust him an inch, who would, but the money was worth it - and I think most people would agree with them - if the e-cats worked.

The Trial started

Then, after heavy pre-Trial legal expenses, and just before Rossi had to give evidence himself under oath to support his lies,

Industrial Heat settled just before Rossi was going to --wait for it--go after their partners and show they had received his IP. Not only that, but the judge called him "dr. Rossi" right in front of the jurors and people started showing up ready to testify that it was speculated wouldn't show up.

Rossi settled. Rossi originally sued IH, wanting his $100M. He never got this. IH, like any sensible company, did not want legal proceedings. But they could not give Rossi $100M for non-working product. I have no idea from where you get your evidence about people showing up. Abd was at the Trial proceedings, reported in great detail here and on his site which we reference, and his account does not agree with yours. I also notice that the content of your statement above is pure speculation with no fcats to back it up. As opposed to my comment here which is backed up by Court depositions and transcripts etc.

Rossi, on his blog, tried to spin the whole affair as a victory for him. It clearly was not. He sued IH, spent legal fees, and received back nothing of any value.

Incidentally, I fail to see what relevance the Judge calling Rossi Dr. has to anything - except that it is the sort of thing Rossi would care about and might propagate.

Rossi stopped his action in return for - wait for it - the (Doral) e-cat IP.

Not the $100M (or was it $300M) he was asking for.

***You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. IH would go bankrupt before they paid out $300M. And they knew that they couldn't separate Rossi from his IP, that in order to get the boxes to work he would have to go with them... the Fred Flinstone strategy.

That is a fair point re extracting money from IH. But then Rossi would have known that before spending so much money on pre-trial lawyers. So why did he suddenly change his mind? Also, although IH did not have $100M (they had a strategy to raise it on the evidence of working product) they had a significant amt of money. Rossi could have obtained that. Your other point is factually wrong. The license contract does separate Rossi from his IP. If IH had paid up they would have got what (in the hypothetical use of working e-cats) they wanted.

But wait - KevMo - that IP. So valuable...

If Rossi's IP was worthless then he would have gone after the money. And if his IP was worthless then IH wouldn't have asked for it in their original countersuit, even though they weren't willing to PAY for it. If his IP were worthless the independent report would have said so. The whole trial HINGED on his IP, which -- wait for it -- you call worthless.

That KevMo is not what Rossi said when demanding $300M. In Court Depositions he said that he was desperate for the Trial to go ahead so he could get his money. Nor do you have any evidence for it other than the blog statements of a self-confessed liar. However I have the actions of said liar. On having that IP reassigned:

• No Doral style e-cats have been build or sold
• No-one has been sold the IP
• Rossi has claimed it is worthless (and therefore he will instead develophis new device)
• It has sunk without trace. Expected given IH claims. Strange given Rossi's claims.

Umm... No, Rossi has decided to ditch the old-style e-cats and work on a completely different system with nothing in common, which, he declared, is better.

And had little bearing on the proceedings of the trial at the time, other than to show that Rossi had a backup plan.

True, no direct bearing. But it speaks to the fact that those devices did not work and therefore it has a strong bearing on how the actions of Rossi and IH during the trial can be interpeted. It is called joining up the dots.

But that old IP, so valuable Rossi gave up his chance of $100M

I doubt IH would have paid, especially in light of the Fred Flinstone strategy. They would simply have gone bankrupt and Rossi woulda got nothing.

Repeat of earlier point, dealt with earlier

after spending all that early money on legal fees,

***Industrial Heat spent a ton on legal fees themselves, and got... a yearlong demo and a 3rd party report saying it worked, which is what their contract stipulated.

This is a non sequitur

surely that has value and could be sold to somone even if Rossi did not want it?

Nope.

Not necessarily having any weight whatsoever on the legal proceedings, does it? But it doesn't stop you from criticizing him every chance you get.

This is a repeat of your argument above, which, if you join the dots, is clearly false. And you are adding to this lack of deduction a comment on my stance that does not advance your argument. If those e-cats work the IP has large value - as do the devices which Rossi or IH could mass produce. That this has not happened speaks to no value.

Regards,

THH