The Industrial Heat Answer


  • IHFM seems to think that IH is on trial here. "On the hook." What hook? My interest is, in fact, in LENR, but the topic here is the lawsuit, explicitly. For LENR, we needed to know since 2011 if Rossi's claims were showing real and substantial LENR heat. We knew that NiH heat was possible, though not well-confirmed and not known to be reliable.


    We now know that, by the preponderance of the evidence -- not proof! not yet! -- the Rossi effect was fraud. We will treat it that way. That's rebuttable. But it better be good! No more "Rossi says" and so it must be true. No more managed demonstrations considered as evidence for reality.


    Planet Rossi will not completely go away. Consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ernst_Worrell_Keely, and http://www.svpvril.com/JKMot2.html ... more than 100 years later.


    There are still people who apparently believe that the world is flat and who present arguments that can snag the naive and igorant.


    In order to be the energy future of humanity, cold fusion must move into the mainstream. That requires rigor, not claims. Yes, a commercial device would blow it open. I used to call that Plan A when it looked like the Rossi Effect had some basis and some approval from scientists. But the energy future of humanity is too large an issue to have all our eggs in one basket, and especially a basket held by an eccentric inventor at best, and possibly a fraud. So Plan B was to do what had been recommended by both U.S. Department of Energy reviews: basic research to address fundamental issues.


    We do not yet know how to make commercially practical devices. What we do know is that LENR is real, from conclusive controlled experiment, multiply confirmed, not subject to the file-drawer effect.


    So the first Plan B project I declared was to confirm the heat/helium ratio in the Fleischman-Pons Heat Effect with increased precision. There was originally opposition within the field, Measuring helium is expensive, and we didn't need to know, it was thought. (Most in the field accept that the ratio is 24 MeV/4He already). However, this is the most direct, conclusive evidence that FP heat is real and the reaction is nuclear in nature. And if it is not this, if this is somehow an artifact that bit multiple researchers and somehow tricked them into finding helium with experimental error of the deuterium conversion to helium value, increased precision, across multiple experiments and research groups should reveal that. This is work that genuine skeptics should welcome and support. And if the confirmations confirm with increased precision what is already confirmed by multiple groups, but with less precision, it is over. Cold fusion comes in out of the cold, and if it doesn't, well, that is when we fire up grass-roots and other organizations, if it's necessary. That would be when we'd be needing political skills and dedicated activism. That is when the funding for Cold Fusion Now should explode. Etc.


    This is "crushing the tests," which is what Darden said they were doing in his Fortune interview last year. This is not allowing us to dwell in uncertainty and doubt -- and wishful thinking, by creating clarity and certainty.


    Back to this "hook" idea. Here, what we think about the players has little real-world effect. There are some people who might need to know this or that, who will read this, and if they are intelligent, they will confirm everything and do their own research.


    If IH is "on the hook," it is in the trial, not here. I can't change that. Nor can Planet Rossi get Rossi "off the hook" by proclaiming over and over that IH is a massive conspiracy to suppress Rossi technology. It will not help him at all, unless they decide to, say, crowd-source his defense fund. That would show actual commitment.

  • Sorry about that deletion Abd.


    I don't think you are. Your response shows no sorrow or regret, but justifies your action.


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    But no-one is beyond being moderated - I though it was all off-topic spam even if you didn't.


    Have you looked again at it? Can you undelete? If not, you could ask what it was. It was a response to an off-topic rant from Sifferkoll, and I put it under a new off-topic header, precisely to stop carrying on off-topic discussions in serious topic threads. It was not spam by any stretch of the imagination. Because of your action, I have not done it again. I think the off-topic forum is full of spam. So I think you just went down deleting a lot of it without caution. However, this adds to another incident where you deleted a post of mine and wrote as a reason, "Just because I can." Those show lack of skill and training as a moderator.


    Quote

    As for my being in 'over my head' that is a ridiculous thing to say, and totally unprovable from where you are.


    I'm experienced with managing communities like this, and know what is possible and what is not, and you have shown that you are essentially clueless, and not interested in learning. You can do good some work, but would require supervision, or an establishment of responsibility to the community, and that's missing.


    {quote]And for God's sake don't write a whole screen-full of text on that topic just to make yourself right. I would of course appreciate a little more help from you. Kindly STOP feeding the Trolls.[/quote]
    Stop giving the Trolls free run of the place, which you have done. You don't have the power to ban, but you do have the power to request it. As to screen-fulls of text, my goal is not to "make myself right." My goal is to learn and to share what I find as I explore. And there are people who appreciate this and people who don't understand it and who take it as you are. If you were the only person here, I'd be writing very differently. But you are not and I am not generally writing for you.

  • Alan, I moderated a forum once and it really is difficult and thankless. Who are the admins in case I do decide to contact them? Sorry if it's posted and I missed seeing it.

  • So the first Plan B project I declared was to confirm the heat/helium ratio in the Fleischman-Pons Heat Effect with increased precision


    If you already know that heat and helium are correlated,and this result had already been replicated several times, why would you waste resources on yet another useless and expensive replication? What possibl;e interest is there in increased precision? Are you trying to say that the historic measurements are not reliable? What possible scientific insight is gained?

  • Would the National instruments engineers allow that error to happen?


    When the NI engineers saw the configuration, they refused to work with Defkalion. They removed their support and their endorsement.


    I believe you said earlier that the ICCF18 test was automated so the NI engineers must have helped. That is incorrect. Any reasonably skilled person can set up an automated procedure these days.


    What followed was fraud. See:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GamberaleLfinaltechn.pdf


    Some quotes:


  • Quote: “we know from the Defkalion test can at low flowrates make flowmeters massively over-read"”


    Would the National instruments engineers allow that error to happen?


    I have no idea. I guess it would depend which engineers and whether they were working (as would normally be the case) within their normal field of expertise. But, in any case, what relevance has this?


    EDIT: I see Jed's post above answers my questions.

  • What possibl;e interest is there in increased precision? Are you trying to say that the historic measurements are not reliable? What possible scientific insight is gained?


    I pretty much agree with you. But if experts want to see more precision, they probably have their reasons. I leave it to the scientists to decide what experiment should be done next. I have no strong opinion, since I know nothing about theory.


    The helium numbers do have large error margins, especially at low power. Higher sustained power would be a help for this particular measurement. It is not so important for other measurements. Higher sustained power would allow helium collection above the atmospheric background. The other way to achieve this is to begin with helium at atmospheric concentration in the collection flasks already. The problem with that is, it makes for a big background.

  • I guess it would depend which engineers and whether they were working (as would normally be the case) within their normal field of expertise.


    As I said, these particular engineers looked at Defkalion's equipment and pulled the plug. They said no way will we put our company imprimatur on this. I've heard they were pretty upset.


    In other words, they didn't fall for it.

  • Abd. TLDR. IMHO you are a pompous self-serving narcissist. But I suppose you serve a purpose of sorts. Please avoid writing to me in future.

    I will avoid that. To support this, please do not use your moderator tools with respect to my posts, and please do not call me names, or otherwise interact with me and my work, it's trolling for response. Thanks.

  • Quote from Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax: “So the first Plan B project I declared was to confirm the heat/helium ratio in the Fleischman-Pons Heat Effect with increased precision”


    If you already know that heat and helium are correlated,and this result had…


    Well, one reason for doing this experiment properly would be that people I'm aware of outside the LENR field who have looked at the existing data do not find it convincing. There are two issues I remember that between them might account (as an artifact) for the seemingly convincing quoted data:


    (1) Data selection. For example, a cell that showed He higher than that expected might (correctly) be viewed as leaky - given that lab atmosphere He content can be high and requires more care than was mostly exercised to control. It would then (obviously) be corrected and any results from it before correction discounted. A cell with no He might be regarded as not working and, again, discounted. These two effects can give "expected" results from random data


    (2) He correlation with experiment time, excess heat correlation with experiment time. Most have obvious causes - since leakage and heat both scale linear with time - at least when cell He concentration is lower than immediate ambient.


    No doubt Abd, aware of these two issues, would expect that a new experiment would plug these two loopholes, and perhaps a few others, very carefully.


    Regards, THH

  • @Abd,


    While I, unlike some here, appreciate your often very valuable posts, having an argument with Alan over moderation is both bad manners and unhelpful. He does his best. And he is not obliged to do anything.


    Alan may make mistakes, as we all do. Impugning his motives is exactly the behavior you rightly abhor when others here do it!


    I have not noticed recently any obvious moderation bias here, and I'm of broadly the same viewpoint as you over the IH/Rossi matter.

    • Official Post

    Abd, you shared your opinion of me with the forum, I returned the compliment. And as for your being exempt from moderation by me or anyone, in yer dreams, pal. I have seen you in action on many other forums, you enter, attempt to dazzle with your eloquence and having wound up the both other posters and the moderators depart in a huff. As you will no doubt depart from here, it's just a matter of time.

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