Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

"Virtually nothing is known of the... Sk reactors."

That is certainly the case. And yet you are obviously enthusiastic about them. Without better evidence, why do think they exist at all?

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The criticisms [[ of Rossi ]] are repeated endlessly and achieve nothing. What a waste of space.

What is a waste of space is quoting Rossi's many claims and citing his demos and reports for which he never has acceptable evidence of any energy-yielding reaction.

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Adrian is performing a public service,.

Ask Mr. Darden about the public service performed by those who advised him to offer lucrative contracts to Rossi.

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I don't find IH's position any more convincing than Rossi's. Their position was not adjudicated in court, it was he says, she says.

How can you say that when the lawsuit produced hundreds if not thousands of pages of depositions and reports, all damning to Rossi?

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I object to the very repetitive ad hominem attacks on Rossi who is not here to defend himself.

As has been pointed out to you before and you don't seem to understand:

1) Calling a scammer and liar as such is not an ad hominen attack.

2) Why isn't Rossi "here to defend himself?" Celani was. McKubre was. Both, BTW, were politely treated, as they should be. Though how Rossi might be welcomed might depend on what he wrote! But no worries. Has he ever appeared in an open forum full of his critics where he could be asked uncensored questions? Why do you think Rossi folded on his $400 million lawsuit against IH?

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Virtually nothing is known of the design of the QX or Sk reactors.

Except that they seem to be constructed from plastic tubing and duct tape.

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It makes no sense that Rossi would continue working on it for so long unless he believed he had something.

So what sense does it make that he continued for years to work on the original water/steam ecats, the hot tube ecats, and the megawatt plant? Anyway, it all makes sense if the only purpose of the work is to get investment money from credulous people.

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I have no reason to doubt that he has new financial investment and people prepared to do that ted not to be stupid.

You mean as in how clever IH was to invest in Rossi? Or his many discarded distributors such as the one in Australia, Ampernego and Hydrofusion?

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Obviously it is silly to pontificate on whether commercial QX works as claimed, or the status of the factory, without better evidence,

Yet that is what you seem to do all the time

I object to the very repetitive ad hominem attacks on Rossi who is not here to defend himself.

Your unrealistic and contrafactual statements about Rossi are why these get repeated.

You say you find Rossi and IH to be comparable from the Court evidence. Many here will point out that this is not true. Rossi is clearly shown to have lied, and done so with what taken loosely (I'm not sure legally, WW would have a view) is a successful fraud against IH. IH has no such blot, although they have been shown to have handled the whole matter badly. Those are facts, and based on sworn testimony from Rossi and others. That they were not used in Court does not stop them from being facts. Nor would a court case, if run to completion, necessarily settle the matters that concern you. But the enormous quantity of facts unearthed during discovery certainly helps to do so.

You have not yet shown that any of my statements (or those of anyone else) are an ad hominem attack. I refer to facts about Rossi's recent business dealings. Others bring in more facts (less relevant) about Rossi's past business dealings. Those are also not ad hominem attacks since they are documented facts. Perhaps at the fringes a few people may make ad hom attacks, as you implicitly do by doubting IH position and therefore, logically, calling Darden a liar on no stated evidence.

I agree that it is strong to say that someone has exhibited a pattern of deceitful and (at least in one case, IH) fraudulent behaviour by repeatedly lying to business partners, falsifying tests, etc. But, that is what the evidence shows, and that is what will get said.

Along with IO and others here I am quite sure it is not possible to change your positive judgement of whether Rossi has something that works. You will remember the argument: that pretty well every test has known errors that would deliver the quoted results from an electric heater, and that Rossi has been informed of said errors on multiple occasions (by friends) and refused to correct them. Also, he has made statements like "controls are not necessary" that show an attitude that favours false positive results. And, for whatever reason, you are not swayed by it.

I perhaps should comment on "many of the critics hypotheses have been proven wrong". Whether said proofs are true or not I don't wish to argue. It is however factually almost certainly inevitable that most skeptic ideas will be wrong. In Rossi experiments there are perhaps 10 obvious sources of uncontrolled error, and maybe a few more that are not obvious. Any one of these could by itself deliver the false positives. It is not expected, for any experiment, that more than a few of the unknowns which actually be the ones that cause errors when one would be enough. And just one of the (many) skeptic hypotheses is enough to account for the error. Your setting evidential weight on this shows a lack of understanding. It is a pretty common logical error, so I don't blame you. However, if you don't take this on board and revise your views accordingly it will be another indication (we have shown a few before on this thread) of your inability to incorporate contrary evidence into your views.

Perhaps a thought experiment would help. Imagine an inventor - let us call him Rossiplus. He believes firmly that his inventions are works of brilliance and wonder. Not only does he not need controls, he does not need active tests either because his calculations show that they work.

Rossiplus makes more or less the same claims as Rossi, but has not even one instrumented test to prove them. He shows devices heating factories, etc. Critics point out the various ways in which the observed results could be delivered from electric heaters (all these devices have significant power input requirements). But there is very little information about what is actually done, so most of the skeptic hypotheses will be wrong. Obviously if you have no information on the test you cannot prove it is negative. In fact, to prove a test is negative you need a lot of reliable information. That has only ever been true for Lugano, where Rossi unwisely let others instrument a test. You can see Rossi's influence in the many examples of bad practice during the testing, but nevertheless the raw data coheres and shows a null device.

Rossi is similar to Rossiplus, but with better PR management. He conducts a whole load of tests to keep supporters interested, while limiting information and control of these tests so that the results are worthless. His proof is not better than Rossiplus, but his ability to deceive others (and perhaps even himself) is much more advanced.

It is very telling that Rossi never developed or marketed his original steam-generating ecat. His claims for it were that it could generate at least 10 kW reliably. Forget the claims about the robotic factories in construction to make and market the items. Forget the claims that Rossi was seeking certification. If the original ecat could make 10 kW (or even 5) it could have been sold by the millions as a source of heating and cooking energy in the undeveloped world. Or in the developed world for that matter. Just imagine 10kW continuous power in the form of dry steam with trivial fuel cost! Yet that was in 2011 and has never been developed or licensed in the 7 years since. And don't forget that Rossi wrote in an early patent that he used an ecat to heat a factory (!) for years before 2011.

It is not possible that Rossi was telling the truth then and the original ecat was simply dropped. It would mean leaving hundreds of millions of dollars on the table.

I read Rossi believers writing that the original ecats worked but were unstable or had control problems. Rossi never complained of such problems. He never said that was why he dropped that design. And even if true, that would be an engineering issue, well worth huge investments in consideration of big returns from worldwide sales.

When making a ton of money so simply is neglected as Rossi seems to have done, the only logical assumption is that the inventor is insane or lied about everything and there is nothing to suggest that Rossi is insane. And if he lied about everything in 2011, why would he stop lying between then and now?

For Adrien, logic and sense are babble and the lies Rossi puts out are facts and evidence. Lewis Carroll would be proud.

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WE will find out who is right is a few months.

If one searches in various blogs and forums, one can see that this has been continuously said about Rossi, with variations in the time scale, since his original 2010 announcement.

It's too bad the many years of ecatnews posts are lost in the ether. There was a prolific poster named Daniel Maris who was the Adrian Ashfield of that site for at least 5 years. He too claimed to be neutral about Rossi despite defending him right and left and constantly admonished people to "wait and see what happens". Every few weeks, he would invariably post something along the lines of "we will find out who is right in a few months" or "if nothing happens by January (May... August.... November), then I will give up on Rossi." He played that tune for five long years. It was pretty entertaining to watch, I will admit.

interested observer

The posts are not lost. You can get most of ecatnews.com from:

https://web.archive.org/

... and a nice large sample of 2012 comments which sample featured Shane D. defending the usual people and companies. from:

https://web.archive.org/web/20…s.com:80/?p=2205#comments

seven_of_twenty: Thanks for the link. What a walk down memory lane

Don’t forget Freethinker, Methusala and the amazing Sojourner Soo. Feathers really flew when they were on the scene.

Quote from Shane D.

Problem with ECNs was that it was mostly about Rossi. When the Rossi story started winding down, so did the site. RansomPW was one of the best Rossi defenders, but the day the IH press release about the ECat not working was released, he disappeared, never to be heard from again. The last 2 years I was the only "believer" left.

One thing I like about LF, is that it is about LENR. Rossi is just a circus side show freak. LF will be around a long time since LENR can never be proven wrong , and it has every bit as much firepower as ECN's. Not as free-spirited, but I am working on that.

This part of the EcatNews article from 2012 still holds true today.

Sometimes a genius can act in ways that do not make sense to those of us on the wrong side of the curtain.

We may yet learn that Andrea Rossi is such a genius navigating his way through an impossible maze of conflicting priorities. Right now, the pattern fits both Starlite and Steorn and the latter is not flattering. I remain a LENR optimist and for that reason hold out that we may have another Starlite here. While that invention was astounding, its potential for change is dwarfed by the eCat. This is why you should remain suspicious of anyone telling you that the chance of Rossi being real is zero.

Quote from sam12

This part of the EcatNews article from 2012 still holds true today.

Sometimes a genius can act in ways that do not make sense to those of us on the wrong side of the curtain.

We may yet learn that Andrea Rossi is such a genius navigating his way through an impossible maze of conflicting priorities. Right now, the pattern fits both Starlite and Steorn and the latter is not flattering. I remain a LENR optimist and for that reason hold out that we may have another Starlite here. While that invention was astounding, its potential for change is dwarfed by the eCat. This is why you should remain suspicious of anyone telling you that the chance of Rossi being real is zero.

Re, "wrong side of the curtain" speak for yourself!

Rossi is definitely no genius, despite his crude attempts to pawn himself off as one. Rossi has a very limited understanding of basic physics. For example, in his demonstrations, he stated that AC electricity has no "pole" as a defense for why, when measuring power from a 3-phase source, placing 3 electrical current clamps in a particular orientation (vs. the opposite) could not result in inflated COP calculations. In fact, making this ignorant assumption leads to a 75% chance (on average) of underestimating input electrical power by 50%. He has demonstrated that he does not understand the basics of AC electricity and the concept of electrical phase. Rossi has shown that he doesn't understand why peak AC voltage is different than "root mean square" (RMS) voltage in power calculations. In a youtube video with him, Focardi and Levi (which unfortunately I can no longer find), Rossi spends at least 5 minutes in an amateurish manner going through an extremely simple power calculation (P=V*I) on a white board, while Focardi impatiently watches.

Rossi has not presented any coherent theoretical framework for his effect. In every case, the attempts to develop theoretical bases for Rossi's irreproducible "effects" has always been done by others (Focardi, Cook, Gullström), not by Rossi. Regarding these very speculative attempts at theory, in the case of Cook, he lists several possible nuclear reactions and then concludes that there is no existing theoretical framework explaining Rossi's self-asserted and unverifiable "effect" (meaning that Cook could not provide an explanatory theory). Focardi's theory is both speculative and at times incoherent. Gullström's attempt involves plasma physics and can only be described as entirely speculative. As it turns out, Gullström never actually observed any of Rossi's equipment. He wrote his theoretical work based on Rossisays results.

In other words, there is no genius there. What Rossi has demonstrated for those paying attention, is that over decades he has "mastered" the basic physics behind electric heaters (P=VI, or equivalently P=I²R) and has recently (in the last few years) moved on to more advanced ideas like spark gaps and Tesla coils.

One could argue that Rossi's "genius" is his remarkable ability in conning credulous scientists into lending credibility to his fraudulent stage tricks by attempting to develop scientific theories to explain his irreproducible results. Rossi has become a master at this, but that hardly warrants genius status. History is full of successful con artists like Rossi.

But Rossi does live behind a curtain. He has a fake "Journal" curtain, fake "factory" curtain, fake "robotic" production line curtains, fake "certification authorities" , fake "sigma" numbers for imaginary (and unspecified) processes, fraudulent "demonstration" curtains, etc.

But it's not like his curtains have never been pulled back. He's been exposed numerous times for anyone willing to see. He had steam dribble out a hose (when it wasn't going to a hole in the wall to drain out), when it should have been screaming high velocity steam based on his claims. He had isotopic ash that was pure Ni62 (obviously 'salted'). He had a "reactor" with no "secret sauce" demonstrating the same output power as "reactors" with his secret sauce (exposed due to confusion over the position of the number 9 being confused with 6 painted on the "reactor").

Regarding IH, Rossi claimed an urgent decision was required by IH to move their e-cat from North Carolina to Florida because of the independent "customer" and their "factory" needed 1MW of heat. In actuality, based on Rossi's own evidence and testimony, the "customer" was himself, there was no "factory", no real "customer", and no urgency (the physical space for the fake "factory" would not be leased for another two months after his fraudulent email to IH). When the warehouse that was to contain this "factory" was leased, it was leased by Rossi, not by any independent "customer". And what did Rossi do in this warehouse posing as a "factory" from a "customer"? He built a curtain. It was an 8 foot high plywood curtain that nobody was allowed to go behind except Rossi and his fake engineer (Bass), whom he provided scripted fake "talking points" to in order to reassure potential investors that this was all legit. (It wasn't).

According to Rossi's own testimony, this fake "customer" (Rossi himself) never produced any product and had no use for 1MW of heat. When it became clear that the actual amount of heat produced (around 20KW) was about what one would expect from the electricity consumed based on public utility records (remember, "genius" Rossi had figured out how to heat water electrically), Rossi, using his imagination, "invented" a large heat exchanger out of thin air, with no record that it existed, no records verifying that it was built, and no other person having seen it. And then Rossi imagined and then stated that this massive 1MW of missing "heat" was vented out two side windows of the warehouse "factory" with large electric fans, even though street-view pictures from Google Maps shows that the claimed "vent" windows were in fact intact, there were no signs of any electrical outlets or infrastructure for this venting, and nobody ever mentioned that they ever heard any fan noise from it these imagined large venting fans. And finally, Rossi imagined that this massive heat exchanger that nobody ever saw was suddenly all disassembled and hauled away (including the large fans) in a single day (without any evidence of anyone actually doing this), right before IH sent inspectors in to see the building (and observed that there was no such heat exchanger or large electric fans).

More recently, Rossi is caught on video slyly tinkering with his "Quark X" controller box, attempting to conceal his tampering.

The "Wonderful Wizard of Roz" requests that you "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain".

Or, we are to suppose that the solution to this enigma is that we just don't understand that Rossi is a genius on the "other side of the curtain" and so this explains how his claims are true.

Eventually, you will come to the realization that you mistakenly put your hope and faith in a decades-long fraudster.

Quote from interested observer

Don’t forget Freethinker, Methusala and the amazing Sojourner Soo. Feathers really flew when they were on the scene.

bachcole, warthog and Bernie were always among my favorites, mercy.

Quote from sigmoidal

Re, "wrong side of the curtain" speak for yourself!

Rossi is definitely no genius, despite his crude attempts to pawn himself off as one. Rossi has a very limited understanding of basic physics. For example, in his demonstrations, he stated that AC electricity has no "pole" as a defense for why placing electrical current clamps in one orientation (vs. the opposite) is not a valid criticism of his inflated COP calculations. In fact, making this ignorant assumption leads to a 75% chance (on average) of underestimating input electrical power by 50%. He has demonstrated that he does not understand the basics of AC electricity and the concept of electrical phase. Rossi has shown that he doesn't understand why peak AC voltage is different than "root mean square" (RMS) voltage in power calculations. In a youtube video with him, Focardi and Levi (which unfortunately I can no longer find), Rossi spends at least 5 minutes in an amateurish manner going through an extremely simple power calculation (P=V*I) on a white board, while Focardi impatiently watches.

Rossi has not presented any coherent theoretical framework for his effect. In every case, the attempts to develop theoretical bases for Rossi's irreproducible "effects" has always been done by others (Focardi, Cook, Gullström), not by Rossi. Regarding these very speculative attempts at theory, n the case of Cook, he lists several possible nuclear reactions and then concludes that there is no existing theoretical framework explaining Rossi's self-asserted and unverifiable "effect" (meaning that Cook could not provide an explanatory theory). Focardi's theory is both speculative and at times incoherent. Gullström's attempt involves plasma physics and can only be described as entirely speculative. As it turns out, Gullström never actually observed any of Rossi's equipment. He wrote his theoretical work based on Rossisays results.

In other words, there is no genius there. What Rossi has demonstrated for those paying attention, is that over decades he has "mastered" the basic physics behind electric heaters (P=VI, or equivalently P=I²R) and has recently (in the past five years) moved on to more advanced ideas like spark gaps and Tesla coils.

One could argue that Rossi's "genius" is his remarkable ability in conning credulous scientists into lending credibility to his fraudulent stage tricks by attempting to develop scientific theories to explain his irreproducible results. Rossi has become a master at this, but that hardly warrants genius status. History is full of successful con artists like Rossi.

But Rossi does live behind a curtain. He has a fake "Journal" curtain, fake "factory" curtain, fake "robotic" production line curtains, fake "certification authorities" , fake "sigma" numbers for imaginary (and unspecified) processes, fraudulent "demonstration" curtains, etc.

But it's not like his curtains have never been pulled back. He's been exposed numerous times for anyone willing to see. He had steam dribble out a hose (when it wasn't going to a hole in the wall to drain out), when it should have been screaming high velocity steam based on his claims. He had isotopic ash that was pure Ni62 (obviously 'salted'). He had a "reactor" with no "secret sauce" demonstrating the same output power as "reactors" with his secret sauce (exposed due to confusion over the position of the number 9 being confused with 6 painted on the "reactor").

Regarding IH, Rossi claimed an urgent decision was required by IH to move their e-cat from North Carolina to Florida because of the independent "customer" and their "factory" needed 1MW of heat. In actuality, based on Rossi's own evidence and testimony, the "customer" was himself, there was no "factory" (the physical space for the "factory" would not be leased for another two months). When the warehouse that was to contain this "factory" was leased, it was leased by Rossi, not by any independent "customer". And what did Rossi do in this warehouse posing as a "factory" from a "customer"? He built a curtain. It was an 8 foot high plywood curtain that nobody was allowed to go behind except his fake engineer (Bass), whom he provided scripted fake "talking points" to.

According to Rossi's own testimony, this fake "customer" (Rossi himself) never produced any product and had no use for 1MW of heat. When it became clear that the amount of heat produced was about what one would expect from the electricity consumed based on public utility records (remember, "genius" Rossi had figured out how to heat water electrically), Rossi, using his imagination, "invented" a large heat exchanger out of thin air, with no record that it existed, no records verifying that it was built, and no other person having seen it, and then imagined that this massive amount of missing "heat" was vented out the side window of the warehouse "factory".

More recently, Rossi is caught on video slyly tinkering with his "Quark X" fake "controller" box.

The "wonderful wizard of Roz" requests that you "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain".

Eventually, you will come to the realization that you mistakenly put your hope and faith in a decades long fraudster.

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Rossi does not portray himself as a genius.

He says he would have not been succesful

with the Ecat if he did not have help from Scientists

and other experts. Study,hard work and his

never give up attitude are his greatest attributes.

I hope someone with a Scientific Education gives Abd

a question to ask Norman Cook at ICCF 21about Rossi effect and theory.

He is there this afternoon 1645 to 1710.