Maybe as soon as they are infected they think its a bout of malaria and take some mefloquine which is freely prescribed in Indonesia? So their figures don't show up in the stats as they rapidly get better and become immune to it? Unfortunately once hospitalised they are probably diagnosed with COVID 19 testing and from then on are deprived of mefloquine and so die. Paradoxical and tragic.
Covid-19 News
- Alan Smith
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Brazil's Jair Bolsonaro says coronavirus crisis is a media trick
https://www.theguardian.com/wo…s-crisis-is-a-media-trick
China to lift lockdown on Wuhan, ground zero of coronavirus pandemic.
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robert bryant From the above ABC report updated yesterday. Completely wrong. Fortunately they already have mefloquine so probably wont have a major outbreak. Unlike here where the NHS and government are still doing absolutely nothing. If Mr Widodo is doing the sensible thing (like Trump in US) why is Boris being so ineffectual? Do they actually want this state of emergency to continue for as long as possible?
Mr Widodo has also ordered several million doses of the antimalarial drug chloroquine and the anti-viral Avigan, despite little or no evidence that they would work against coronavirus.
Given the lag between initial infection and death, it could be weeks before it becomes clear whether any of these measures will contain the spread of the virus.
In reality, Indonesia is likely to face a tsunami of cases and a health system that is very quickly overwhelmed.
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robert bryant I tried leaving a sarcastic comment on their site but you have to have an Australian postcode. Maybe you could enlighten them?
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Axil,
Interesting story, but It was the Daily Mail that first made the connection between Hydroxychloroquine, and the fish tank cleaner 3 days ago:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/he…tested-COVID-19-drug.html
Although one of their typical political hit pieces, I do give them credit for at least warning readers: "Sellers of the fish tank product warn it is not for human consumption".
Now think about it; this bright idea to drink a cleaning product was the wife's. The husband is dead, while she is still alive...although she claims to have gotten sick also. Although not too sick to talk to the news, and make it a point to drag Trump into this. What does that tell you?
Tells me, either this story is better suited for "True Detective" magazine (if that is still in print), and if not, is a candidate for this years Darwin Award.
check the size of his life insurance policy,
That may answer more than a few questions
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Tell everyone you can media, politicians everyone! Shout it from the rooftops! When this is all over those responsible for restricting anti-virus medicines may well face justice. There is no excuse for it, all the evidence is in the public domain now and in the UK will be either sued privately or face criminal prosecution. This negligence is allowing people to die unnecessarily. Family, friends, relatives.
Dr Richard,
China should be the government answering to these legal claims.
It started there, they knew of it early, tried to hide it, failed miserably and then failed worse at containment and global notification.
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sam12 . Bolsinaro is probably right for the wrong reasons. They have widespread malaria and so widespread anti-malaria drug use (like Indonesia they use mefloquine amongst others because of chloroquine resistance). So may never have a severe outbreak
Malaria
Areas with malaria: All areas of the states of Acre, Amapá, Amazonas, Rondonia, and Roraima. Also present in the states of Maranhão, Mato Grosso, and Para, but rare cases in their capital cities. Rare cases in the rural areas of the states of Espirito Santo, Goias, Mato Grosso do Sul, Piaui, and Tocantins. Rare cases in the rural forested areas of the states of Rio de Janeiro and São Paolo. No malaria in the cities of Brasilia, Rio de Janeiro, São Paolo, and none at Iguaçu Falls (see Map 2-06).
Estimated relative risk of malaria for US travelers:
Drug resistance4: Chloroquine.
Malaria species: P. vivax 85%, P. falciparum 15%.
Recommended chemoprophylaxis: States of Acre, Amapá, Amazonas, Rondonia, and Roraima. States of Maranhão, Mato Grosso, and Para (but not their capital cities): Atovaquone-proguanil, doxycycline, mefloquine, or tafenoquine.4 Areas with rare cases: None (practice mosquito avoidance).
Probably have more cases in the non-malarial cities?
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Roseland67 agreed but we don't want a third world war - or do you think we should do a first nuclear strike and get it over and done with? (a Trumpism). Suitable punishment for releasing a bio-weapon? Is this why we are all in lock-down with our 'prepper' supplies in?
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Roseland67 agreed but we don't want a third world war - or do you think we should do a first nuclear strike and get it over and done with? (a Trumpism). Suitable punishment for releasing a bio-weapon? Is this why we are all in lock-down with our 'prepper' supplies in?
Hmmmm,
I don’t think I mentioned anything about a nuclear strike, but, how about something along these lines.
Whenever this is over, present them with a bill and let them pay it off over time, when they refuse, set up different supply chains, cease all travel and stop importing everything from China.
We might be amazed at how our own manufacturing picks up
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I believe the report is they are no longer giving ventilators to people over 60 when there are not enough ventilators to go around. Not that they are turning people away from hospitals.
My information was out of date. The N.Y. Times reports that they are turning people away from hospitals.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0…oronavirus-hospitals.html
Dip in Italy’s Cases Does Not Come Fast Enough for Swamped Hospitals
Even as new coronavirus infections appear to slow, a backlog is forcing doctors to make increasingly tough choices about treatment.
. . . the chief of cardiology at the University and City Hospitals in Brescia [said:] “If a patient has a low likelihood to benefit from the hospital, we have to not accept them. You send them home.” He added, “This is also what I am seeing every day.”
[There is also some good news, or what passes for good news these days:]
Two weeks after the Italian government took strict measures to lock down the country, officials announced on Monday that, for the second day in a row, the number of new cases and deaths had declined.
The number of patients in the hospitals in Lombardy, the region that is by far the hardest hit in Italy, had gone down as well, to 9,266 from 9,439.
“We can say that today is the first positive day,” said Giulio Gallera, Lombardy’s leading health official. “It’s not the moment to sing victory, but we finally see light at the end of the tunnel.”
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China should be the government answering to these legal claims.
It started there, they knew of it early, tried to hide it, failed miserably and then failed worse at containment and global notification.
That is only partly true. They did know of it, and tried to hide it. However they succeeded in containment. They told the W.H.O. other countries all about how they contained it, and offered help. Only Korea and Japan paid attention. The Japanese doctors say they learned many lessons and many practical techniques from their Chinese colleagues. If the U.S. and the EU had paid attention, we would have contained it. There is no question these techniques work. It cannot be a coincidence that three large countries have only 50 to 100 cases a day, no pressure on their hospitals, and practically no deaths. This is containment.
The Chinese government has been evil, but the medical establishment and the scientists have performed magnificently. Plus, we must give credit to the political leaders for handing over control to the medical establishment, mobilizing resources, building hospitals overnight, and moving army medics and others into Wuhan.
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Even I would recommend the measles vaccine in certain countries, for certain populations. That is because it is a live, attenuated vaccine. But inactivated vaccines like DTaP is another story. Those vaccines kill many times more children than they save,
500 million doses of the MMR vaccine have been given, and measles deaths fell from 2.6 million deaths per year to ~122,000. All of them include attenuated viruses. If, as you claimed, these vaccines kill many times more children than they save, we would see something like 26 million children dying (10 times more; many times more), including hundreds of thousands in the U.S. Someone would notice this. In fact, 6.2 million children die per year worldwide. Most die from known causes such as contaminated water. So, your hypothesis is wrong.
What you say is not just wrong. It is illogical. Anyone can see at a glance it does not fit the facts. It is anti-scientific. This kind of anti-vaccer misinformation is killing thousands of people, and endangering people everywhere. Trump and others embrace it, and it is the kind of thinking that led them to do nothing in response to the pandemic. It is now uncontrolled and it will probably kill hundreds of thousands of American, possibly millions. Frankly, what you say is vile and evil, and I were in charge of this forum -- which is ostensibly scientific -- I would ban you for a while, for saying such dreadful things.
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That is only partly true. They did know of it, and tried to hide it. However they succeeded in containment. They told the W.H.O. other countries all about how they contained it, and offered help. Only Korea and Japan paid attention. The Japanese doctors say they learned many lessons and many practical techniques from their Chinese colleagues. If the U.S. and the EU had paid attention, we would have contained it. There is no question these techniques work. It cannot be a coincidence that three large countries have only 50 to 100 cases a day, no pressure on their hospitals, and practically no deaths. This is containment.
The Chinese government has been evil, but the medical establishment and the scientists have performed magnificently. Plus, we must give credit to the political leaders for handing over control to the medical establishment, mobilizing resources, building hospitals overnight, and moving army medics and others into Wuhan.
For the most part I agree. We have to separate the Chinese Medical establishment from their communist system, and judge them on their own merits. And it does appear they did a good job. Early on they tried to get the word out to the world on the true extent of the threat, and that may have cost some of them their lives. One through catching the virus himself, while some just disappeared.
Here is a good article showing how much the west, and Japan view their professionalism: https://www.statnews.com/2020/…rs-doctors-turn-to-china/
and an example of why we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The one reason I hesitate to fully agree with what you say, is because I am not sure the leaders "handed over control to the medical establishment". The communist party IS a part of that establishment, and there are still credible reports that the situation in Wuhan, and China overall, is still not being told truthfully. That is not the fault of those doctors who are not members of the China Communist Party, but still a good reminder that while they are good at what they do, they still have have to toe the communist party line. -
For the most part I agree. We have to separate the Chinese Medical establishment from their communist system, and judge them on their own merits. And it does appear they did a good job. Early on they tried to get the word out to the world on the true extent of the threat, and that may have cost some of them their lives. One through catching the virus himself, while some just disappeared.
Here is a good article showing how much the west, and Japan view their professionalism: https://www.statnews.com/2020/…rs-doctors-turn-to-china/
and an example of why we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The one reason I hesitate to fully agree with what you say, is because I am not sure the leaders "handed over control to the medical establishment". The communist party IS a part of that establishment, and there are still credible reports that the situation in Wuhan, and China overall, is still not being told truthfully. That is not the fault of those doctors who are not members of the China Communist Party, but still a good reminder that while they are good at what they do, they still have have to toe the communist party line.Truth, distinguishing people and their ethnicities from the systems and governing authorities they fall under is important. Where I am I think I have observed some of the Chinese immigrants seem afraid that the locals will blame it on them. They aren't technically full communist but a hybrid authoritarian capitalist system. Either way freedom of expression and individual conscience,
Example: in religious expression and allowing peaceful critiquing of the government, is absolutly needed desperately.
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500 million doses of the MMR vaccine have been given, and measles deaths fell from 2.6 million deaths per year to ~122,000. All of them include attenuated viruses. If, as you claimed, these vaccines kill many times more children than they save, we would see something like 26 million children dying (10 times more; many times more), including hundreds of thousands in the U.S. Someone would notice this. In fact, 6.2 million children die per year worldwide. Most die from known causes such as contaminated water. So, your hypothesis is wrong.
What you say is not just wrong. It is illogical. Anyone can see at a glance it does not fit the facts. It is anti-scientific. This kind of anti-vaccer misinformation is killing thousands of people, and endangering people everywhere. Trump and others embrace it, and it is the kind of thinking that led them to do nothing in response to the pandemic. It is now uncontrolled and it will probably kill hundreds of thousands of American, possibly millions. Frankly, what you say is vile and evil, and I were in charge of this forum -- which is ostensibly scientific -- I would ban you for a while, for saying such dreadful things.
Lordy Jed, it is not my 'hypothesis', nor it is it something I have 'claimed'. It is something MDs and PhDs in the field in a certain part of Africa are reporting in their field work as they followed the outcomes of 200,000 children. Did you not watch the video. Did you not hear what Dr. Christine Stabell Benn said: longer term, non specific effects of vaccines have not been properly investigated. Kids receiving the DTaP vaccine in a certain part of Africa are five times more likely to die than those not receiving it. Girls are especially vulnerable. And this is not even reporting morbidity results, only mortality.
I shall repeat again: Non specific effects of vaccines, particularly involving inactivated virus, can result in worse outcomes for other diseases. As I shared in my previous post, getting a vaccine for influenza gets you over a 30 percent increased chance of infection from corona virus.
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Gov Cuomo in NY below said they have procured 7k ventilators but need 30k in the next 14 days. They are now trying to split the use of a ventilator between two patients to see how well it works.
Going back to China, they had many more cases than Italy has now but a much lower mortality rate. I believe a large part of this is because they were able to geographically contain the outbreak mostly to Wuhan. Then they sent large numbers of medical personnel and equipment from other parts of the country into Wuhan to fight it. So they brought in ventilators from elsewhere.
Wouldn’t it be great if Gov Cuomo could call the Governors of 10 other states and they all immediately said they would overnight their ventilators to NY because their region was fine and not at immediate risk? But now we have a case where he’s knocking on doors to procure them and probably not getting much of a response. -
At long last there has been the first mention of chloroquine as a possible remedy in the UK on the BBC in questions. But we are leaving the research to Australia and the US by the look of it. I guess we'll start using it only after WHO approval - I hope some of the arguments presented on this forum can filter through via Google as further positive evidence for its future use. Might well be a life saver before a vaccine can be developed.
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Daily new. cases and deaths down in Italy really good news hopefully will follow the same trajectory as in China, S Korea after quarantining measures and introduction of anti-virus therapies kick in. Need both to end this pandemic. Chloroquine, hydoxychloroquine, azithromycin, favlivavir, remdesivir. Isn't the above an outline for a proposed clinical trial Alan? Not recruiting yet and to be released in six months time? Why such a long wait they must have more data since then?
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