Rossi: “Steam Was Superheated” in 1MW Plant Test

Quote from IHFB

I happen to find Jed's explanation more persuasive. Thomas suggests a "heating element loosely coupled to both the hot core and the primary system." The simple problem with this hypothesis is that, to my knowledge, nobody saw or reported such a "loosely coupled" heating element. And the unit was opened for inspection for all witnesses to see.

I don't think you've read Jed's critique. Any old heating element will do for that.

But, in any case, all I meant was one that is thermally coupled to both core and primary circuit which, if you think about it, is bound to be the case. Hoe good is the coupling is not clear from a casual inspection.

Are you saying there was no heating element because no-one saw it?

Thomas - regarding Mats and reports, that little exchange has proven to be quite productive. I've gotten a couple of messages that hint that that Rossi has shared some information from the "ERV" with Mats and apparently others as well. Very good development if that is the case.

I'm guessing that Rossi is trying to recruit some assistance for when the "ERV" goes public. We may see how smart or gullible these folks are in the near future.

Quote from Thomas Clarke

I don't think you've read Jed's critique.

And what makes you draw that conclusion?

Quote from Thomas Clarke

But, in any case, all I meant was one that is thermally coupled to both core and primary circuit which, if you think about it, is bound to be the case. Hoe good is the coupling is not clear from a casual inspection.
Are you saying there was no heating element because no-one saw it?

Do you suggest it was hidden somewhere? Yes, trickery is always a possibility. It is nigh impossible to disprove it.

Quote from Dewey Weaver

Thomas - regarding Mats and reports, that little exchange has proven to be quite productive. I've gotten a couple of messages that hint that that Rossi has shared some information from the "ERV" with Mats and apparently others as well. Very good development if that is the case.

I'm guessing that Rossi is trying to recruit some assistance for when the "ERV" goes public. We may see how smart or gullible these folks are in the near future.

No, no, Dewey.

It's another dose of truth we need, as promised.

Not speculation. We have enough speculation

Very good Nigel.

Shane D - that is pretty darn funny

Quote from IH Fanboy

Quote from Thomas Clarke: “I don't think you've read Jed's critique. ”

And what makes you draw that conclusion?

Quote from Thomas Clarke: “But, in any case, all I meant was one that is thermally coupled to both core and primary circuit which, if…

IHFB - re this post I've got no idea what you mean. Are you saying there is no heating element? That would be pretty surprising - where would all the input power go? Take a step back and try to communicate.

Quote from Thomas Clarke

Take a step back and try to communicate.

Perhaps you should. Maybe you could start with explaining what you mean by "a heating element loosely coupled to both the hot core and the primary system." What would it look like? What mass would it have? How large would it be? What would it be made of? Where specifically would it be connected, and by what means? Do you think it was purposely "loosely coupled" by Rossi because Rossi was keen enough to have the forethought to anticipate your attack on the test, and did the loose coupling to throw you off? That is one smart cookie, that Rossi.

I read the discussion of last April on Mats Lewan's blog and indeed I see Ascoli65 mentioned the misplaced thermocouple as an obvious error source.. so little or no value added by my post "Rossi: “Steam Was Superheated” in 1MW Plant Test". Didn't replicate calculations but they look very credible.
Actually the argument of explaining thermal profiles with a "selfsustaining reaction" when thermal inertia is instead an obvious explanation, is also present in the hotcat TPR1 in the section "remarks on the test" addressing the so called selfsustaining mode.
In that case I could almost perfectly mimic the temperature graphs judged "anomalous" by the authors, by modeling the reactor with a hot core "loosely coupled" to the external steel cylinder and adjusting the thermal conductance in between. All was needed was thermal inertia.

@ andrea.s, you wrote:

- "Now the position of this thermocouple is right on the outlet of a piece of tubing that is a single block with the hot vapor inlet."

This is the objection more frequently raised on the 6 October test. It is obviously well founded, but IMO it is less important than the excessive flow rate in the secondary circuit. It is clear that if this last was just one tenth, the delta T would have been 10 times higher, removing in this way all the doubts about the amount of heat transferred to the secondary flow regardless of the TC position.

I think that it should also be considered the ultimate meaning of the individual objections. The inadequate TC placement inspires doubts that the measured delta T was affected by a large error, while the inadequate choice of water flow gives you the certainty that its scope was to mask the true results.

Ultimately, for the test of October 6, 2011, it is better to ignore the data related to the secondary circulation and to consider solely those related to the primary and tertiary circulations.

Quote from sifferkoll

Well, I finally got to meet the guy working the &quot;other&quot; IH agenda (Dewey's diversions). Some of you probably know him from ECN as fredz777. He's name is Fred Zoepfl and he make you all look like saints (even you Dewey) Have a look: <a href="http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/meet-fred-zoepfl-the-secret-weapon-of-ihapco-or-a-physisist-malfunctioning/" class="externalURL" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a>…

Well that post on Sifferkoll(r) sure was a waste of time. There is one part that really resonated with me though, because it is such a huge point that Rossi-supporters conveniently and ridiculously love to sweep under the rug.

"some Italian jailbird who has no technical training whatsoever in nuclear physics (your basic idiot savant) is going to solve "cold fusion"/LENR and save the world. And not just any "cold fusion", but proton-lithium cold fusion where the repulsive Coulomb force is three times greater and ionizing radiation is produced in mass quantities!"

Not only is this 100% factually true that he has absolutely no technical training in nuclear physics...his "science" degree is from a mail-order diploma mill that was shut down for fraud for gods sake, but the notion that this unqualified fraudster would be the one to bring proton-lithium cold fusion to the world and at a COP~50 to boot, while no other scientist on the planet has even come close, is beyond preposterous. The fact that you, Sifferkoll, and the rest of the Rossi-believers cannot grasp this simple yet incredibly important point is truly astonishing to me. Some people never let go of faerie tales I guess....

@Ascoli65

"..the inadequate choice of water flow gives you the certainty that its scope was to mask the true results."

That is unpolite: it is called "COP optimization".

Quote from sifferkoll

Take it easy renzzie! No need to go ballistic. However I sort of figured this guy Fred should get you salivating. You sort of speak the same language...

I am not quite sure what would be taken as ballistic from my post...but okay. I actually take it as a compliment that you accuse me of "speaking the same language" as that of a nuclear physicist...thank you Siffer!

Now that you have gotten your standard distraction tactics out of the way Sifferkoll, what say you on the point I made....that Rossi has absolutely no technical training in nuclear physics...his "science" degree is from a mail-order diploma mill that was shut down for fraud for gods sake, but the notion that this unqualified fraudster would be the one to bring proton-lithium cold fusion to the world and at a COP~50 to boot, while no other scientist on the planet has even come close? I await your ever so riveting response Sifferkoll......

@ IH Fanboy, you wrote:
- "I happen to find Jed's explanation more persuasive."

I take this opportunity to point out that I like to discuss with anyone who wishes to share his opinion on this important story, I won't convince you or anybody else. If you find Rothwell's explanation (but I haven't still understood exactly which one) the most persuasive, that's OK for me.

- "The simple problem with this hypothesis is that, to my knowledge, nobody saw or reported such a "loosely coupled" heating element. And the unit was opened for inspection for all witnesses to see."

The "heating element" is the one cited by Lewan in his report, where he writes: "electric power was fed to a resistance inside the E-cat".

If you wish to know where it is placed, you can refer to a quite nice (but IMO partially wrong) layout by Bob Higgins (1). The "heating element" is drawn in red inside the rectangle called "reactor", which represents the inner box placed inside the outer case of the fat-cat. The Higgins' layout shows two lead shieldings below and above that rectangle. No one reported to have seen these shieldings, nor there are photographs of the interior of the inner box. So we can think that in reality they are some steel plates surrounding the heating element, which store a large part of the heat from the resistance during the first period of the test and give it to the primary fluid during the so-called SSM period.

How much these internal elements are thermally coupled each other, it does not make much difference.

(1) https://ecatsite.wordpress.com/energy-catalyzer-overview/

Quote from sifferkoll

Be my guest! Well, as far as I understand Angry Freddie is more of a Washinton lobbyist for the Biofuel industry collecting tax dollars for the AGW agenda or something. This astroturfing I guess gives him som extra cash. I do believe it is in his agenda to ACT as a physisist, but it seems he's more inte repetitions of ad-hominem accusations on every moving thing he sees that has anything to do with Rossi. If you do not see what a massive creep he is, then you have the same problem.

Okay, so now you are saying he is a biofuel lobbyist who just ACTs as a physicist rather than an actual physicist...your tales get more and more outlandish with every statement. I have not made judgement at all regarding him, so I have no idea if he is a creep or not....or even if he is telling the truth. All I did was point out something he said that I believe is truthful...doing so does not lend to judgment of the speaker at all. You continue to dodge my question yet again in this third post. You should know by now that the deflection tactic does not work on me. Soooooo..... I AGAIN await your highly anticipated answer to my query....

Quote from sifferkoll

Quote: “thank you Siffer!”

Be my guest! Well, as far as I understand Angry Freddie is more of a Washinton lobbyist for the Biofuel industry collecting tax dollars for the AGW agenda or something. This astroturfing I guess gives him som extra cash. …

I must say, he makes even Krivit and Wright seem like saints. After reading such vitriol, I think I really could use a shower. What is it about this topic that seems to really draw the worst out of people, particularly from the "nuclear physicist" types? If they are confident in their position, they would remain more civil. The flippant attitudes demonstrate a level of worry I haven't sensed from those quarters in a while. Is this whole story coming to a head?