Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion

    • Official Post
    Quote from JedRothwell

    I am surprised that Russ believes Rossi's demonstration has merit. He apparently thinks Rossi's claims may be true. Or maybe he is sure the claims are true? If I were you, I would lose faith in Russ for that reason. I think it shows that his technical judgement and his knowledge of science is deficient.


    First of all he doesn't think about it as you describe, and secondly he knows far far more about glow discharge than you. You are borderline trolling here Jed, perhaps it is time you considered getting over your old feud with Russ.

    The blackbody image I made is far from perfect. I lined up the wavelengths (x axis), and then scaled the y axis until the 8000 K blackbody peak was as close as I could bother to the highest peaks. Rossi claimed 8111 K. The area under the blackbody curve (a 0.9 emissivity grey body will be slightly less but will have the same shape) must be completely full of radiation counts in each wavelength from zero to the Plank curve line in order to use Wiens Displacement Law to determine temperature. So his temperature is grossly wrong. If the spectra is strongly altered due to intervening materials, then almost any explanation can be given for what we see.


    The spectra is somewhat similar to that of a medium pressure Hg lamp, but with something extraand with a filter cutting the longer wavelengths off. (That would be necessary to absorb heat anyways). Supposedly the ‘ballerina’ was the outside of the reactor cylinder, so not sure what the blob of light was really, or how the spectrometer actually can see the plasma while working to heat a heat exchange fluid. The spectrometer appears to be the same StellarNet model as used for the Gullstrom paper and in Stockholm.

    The glowy end bits may be a gold-coated surface reflecting radiation away from the electrical connections.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    First of all he doesn't think about it as you describe,


    In that case, Bruce_H and I misunderstand. Perhaps you can explain to us what he meant.



    Quote from Alan Smith

    secondly he knows far far more about glow discharge than you.


    On the other hand, I know more more about physics than he does, judging by some of the things he has said over the years. It is true I know little about glow discharge, but people who know a lot about glow discharge have some doubts about the claims. You people have not published any data, so no one other than your visitors can tell, but they have expressed doubts.



    Quote from Alan Smith

    You are borderline trolling here Jed, perhaps it is time you considered getting over your old feud with Rus


    I think it would be more accurate to say that Russ is mainline trolling here. Not borderline. He has often attacked me, but I do not take it personally because he has attacked every other person who helped him as I did, gave him money or support as I did, and everyone he has worked with. Everyone I know who has worked with him has a low opinion of his work. I cannot judge his work because I have never seen a paper from him. (I do not think he has published anything, but perhaps he did and I missed it.)


    I never extend feuds. Insults never bother me, and I never stay angry for more than 10 minutes. But I don't roll over and play dead when Russ and others denigrate me in public. I wouldn't want people to think I agree, or that I am intimidated.

    Quote from David Nygren

    He reminds me of Steve Jobs presentations 8o

    I am convinced that there is a purpose. Maybe everything is calculated? If Rossi still does not want the attention of the big oil, perhaps this is the best way to play a game? It's complicated..



    Nice theory David. That could be viable explanation why so less impressive presentation. But unfortunately I think more probable explanation is Jeffs theory about Nigerian scammers method.

    For me it was enough to see 'reactor' in video. It is Mr Rossis bed sheet covering 2 LED bulbs (>3000K) and upmost yellowish glow is traditional <2700 K incandescent lamp. If they are video recording inside 'reactor' why would camera, not 'plasma', move constantly. That is to fool your eye to believe it is plasma moving around. Additionally it seems to be animated gif repeating same path. Someone with video analysis skills could track glow edges to analyze how short loop it is repeating.

    Sorry, but I have again to, not even sitting in fence, but declare myself out from Rossis bandwagon. (Especially after reading Franks first hand testimony in ECW).

    What I believe, LENR could be real, but E-Cat XYZ is not.

    Thanks Jed. Those two papers are classics and establish the facts but so much more has been done since - I agree it just comes down to academic politics in the end. The only way of overturning that is to produce a LENR device which can be brought into general use commercially. Strange that this has not been achieved already, given the time, money and resources spent on it. Or maybe physicists begin working initially on cold fusion start off being objective but once bitten by the bug of possible fame and fortune etc lose their objectivity and begin synthesising the data to suit/back up their patent applications? Like Rossi, Patterson, Case for example (and their predecessors F&P)? Intriguing, don't you think? But all I can say this happens all the time in science as soon as the technological applications become apparent to the inventors. I really don't know who or what to believe and I don't think anybody else does either. So in this situation all you can do is work like Director has suggested towards replicating just one simple system which might just prove there is some truth to any of this absolute mess.

    Quote

    If Rossi still does not want the attention of the big oil...


    This is now and has always been a thoroughly stupid theory if it assumed that Rossi has the ability to generate useful power from some sort of LENR mechanism. If that were true, the only way not to get attention from "big oil" would be to STFU until real protective patents, properly constructed, were in place and a large source of financial support was secured -- all clandestinely as possible.


    If Rossi were to sell a device or significant amounts of underpriced energy attributed to such the ecat, it would be out of the bag so to speak. Not that "big oil" could or would stop Rossi. If Rossi were for real, some huge entrepreneur or company would seek to buy the rights. And why not "big oil?" They are now involved in solar, biofuels, wind power and so on. It is really really dumb to believe that Rossi is being furtive instead of simply crooked.


    How about this: Rossi has been lying about essentially everything for at least ten years. He even bragged about lying to previous distributors so as to be relieved from written contracts. Rossi supposedly has the most revolutionary method of power generation in two centuries worth billions or trillions of dollars and he has done absolutely nothing with it in 7 years except bamboozle Industrial Heat and Darden which proved childishly simple to accomplish, Geez, those guys practically flummoxed themselves.


    Hey, here is a thought. Have Rossi start a crowd funding page and have him go on Shark Tank. Now that is a very funny thought isn't it?


    If you believe that Rossi is deliberately keeping a low profile, you'd better have someone screen your email for you.

    Kind of related to Jed's point that the COP is irrelevant, why can't the customer who Rossi refers to as "he", just close the damn loop themselves. I am not an electrical engineer, but would it not be fairly easy to generate the 360 W or whatever it is that is needed via some kind of simple electrical device (ex Peltier effect based)? Then feed back that power to the device to run it? If it keeps running, problem solved. The fact that Rossi does not even try this seems to indicate it does not work. With an output power supposedly 60 times greater than input, that should be a piece of cake. Maybe the electrical people can chime in how easy this would be. Since "he" is a company of the highest echelons, I would think "he" aka "they" have the ability to do this.

    Quote from Dr Richard

    I suppose the basic problem is that we have no basic consensus of how well any LENR device is likely to perform - all we have to go on is all that has been published over the years at ICCF meetings, all the literature and come up with some kind of scientific overview - IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY ACCEPTANCE OF ANY OF IT BY THE MAINSTREAM SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY! All I can figure is that an energy out/energy in of 2 sounds reasonable based on all recent work - the basic lower limit of what can be expected if you like. All I am saying, like Director, is that if we can replicate AR's E-cat, show that it does indeed have a COP of around 2 as we expect to find, then we can go to the next level - CONVINCE THE MAINSTREAM that LENR WORKS! IE PUBLISH the data in a mainstream journal AND ESTABLISH THE FACT ONCE AND FOR ALL.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    This is dreadful.

    If Mats does call out Rossi for what he and this charade are, he kisses his meal ticket goodbye, same with Frank, is this not obvious to everyone?

    Roger Green is still active, I've received an e-mail today:

    Roger is located down under. Is Australia now called SE Asia?!

    Quote from PhysicsForDummies

    Kind of related to Jed's point that the COP is irrelevant, why can't the customer who Rossi refers to as "he", just close the damn loop themselves.


    I assume that "closing the loop" means installing a heat engine and generating electricity, which then powers the device. That is much more difficult than most people realize. It would cost tens of millions of dollars to develop that for a machine 1 kW or larger. If you had a very small machine with an input:output ratio of ~1:100 you could make a toy version with something like a thermoelectric generator, but for anything larger it would be a major engineering project. In this case, I assume Rossi is talking about selling heat for space heating or process heat. "Process heat" means heat used for cooking, curing wood, or industrial applications. The temperature of heat used in such applications is too low for any generator. The Carnot efficiency is too low. Steam for space heating is sold in places such as New York City by Con-Ed. It was originally waste heat steam from electric generators, which by definition means the Carnot efficiency is too low. It wouldn't be waste heat otherwise; they would run it through a low pressure turbine or cylinder. Nowadays they have natural gas boilers to provide steam to customers:


    https://www.coned.com/en/our-e…e-source-our-energy/steam


    If Rossi wants to sell steam that is hot enough, and with high enough pressure for power generation, he would have to make a boiler much stronger and hotter than a process heat boiler. That is a whole different ball game.



    . . . I said a small device with a thermoelectric chip would be a "toy" generator. I mean it would only be powerful enough for something like a cell phone, a wristwatch, or small toy. It would have extremely low efficiency. Most of the heat would be wasted. However, if it could be made compact it would be immensely useful and valuable for niche applications. Such as powering cell phones or heart pumps (Left Ventricular Assist Devices - LVAD). Or hearing aid batteries. The most valuable and expensive energy in the world is sold at milliwatt power levels, in things like hearing aid batteries. Rossi and some others assume you must have megawatt scale devices to be profitable. They have that backwards. It is just the opposite. Smaller is more profitable.

    All of this discussion of the SK seems to imply that we actually saw it yesterday. We saw a blue box and we saw an image of something very bright. That is all we saw. Based on Rossi's impeccable record of providing reliable and factual information, does anybody actually believe we learned anything about this so-called device? At least with the QX we got to see some sprinkler parts. This time around, Rossi didn't even bother to jin up some gadgetry. But, it was a nice blue box with a brass samovar and a panic button on top. That much we can surely say. Rossi must giggle himself to sleep every night thinking about the people who actually take him seriously.

    I think yes. The very first thing Rossi said in the video was that picometric hydrogen aggregates, whose 437.2 nm signature was reportedly shown in a photospectrometer screengrab, are the origin of the energy gain in his device, pointing to the paper he's recently written (which I believe in reality was for the most part authored by prof. G. Vassallo of the University of Palermo, at least on sections 1-4) for more details. I find unusual that he would begin a commercial demonstration with this very specific information that for the most part refers to the theoretical and experimental work of other researchers (if you follow the references there).


    Quote

    [0:49:15] [Rossi] First of all - please, Thomas: show me the enlargement, that section enlarged of the spectrometer that we have prepared - Ok. This particular will be of interest mainly for the scientists, if any, that are listening to us. In this section of the spectrometer that here has been enlarged we have a signature at 437.2 nm. This signature is important because it is a possible indicaton of the existence of picometric aggregates whose high density, I think, is the origin of the energy gain. It should be this thing that turns up the reactions of the effect. Who wants to go deeper in the theoreticals can Google for my paper "E-Cat SK and long-range particle interactions" published on ResearchGate on January 24 2019, several days ago, or more easily just email to me at <email address> and I will send you the link.

    Well January 2019 has came and went. I have refrained from posting for a long time.

    So where do we stand now?!. Ha....


    Adrian still babbles on by calling others babblers! He thought the Jan. demo "showed" several things. He said wait and see. Well we saw, but he will continue his unadulterated garbage. I agree the demo showed things, but not what he means.

    It showed an absolutely horrid presentation of what WOULD BE (if real) the invention of the century. It continued to show how the true nature of Rossi. (and alas, many of his fans) Even "Director" was disgusted. (Although he STILL believes the eCat works! Why? Shake my head) The "intentional horrible demo" theory is so stupid. Talk about lowering one's logic to cover up an indefensible situation! Quite sad.


    I did not see a definitive from Sam12, but assume he is still on the Rossi band wagon, even though he stated for a long time, this demo would make or break it. (Or was it April 1? What would the difference be?)


    "Atom Ecology"? It is now almost a year since the big announcement of "lovely dancing gammas". No public corroboration nor no real data.

    R. G. has now came out in support of this last Rossi demo and stated " I believe he provided more than sufficient detail for one 'skilled in the art' to recreate his SK 'plasma discharge' reactor design. " This is absurd and I have lost what little confidence in R.G I might have had before. If he cannot see Rossi for what he is, Rossi's data (or lack of) for what it IS NOT, chooses to ignore the reams of sworn depositions proving Rossi a liar, cheat and charlatan (not to mention inept at math and research) and a whole host of other damning evidence, his judgement as Jed mentions, is damaged. How can one trust it? If he thinks this last demo was of ANY VALUE, he is most mistaken.

    "Skilled in the Arts" my ass!

    I see a very similar pattern developing with R.G. as with Rossi.... big claims, never supported, , avoiding standard publishing/scientific protocols/ papers/ peer review, always happening soon, yet no public endorsements or support. He does have important "visitors"? Yes, and Rossi was always having Aerospace Engineers and others consult with him as well. But they too evidently,"would not come out of the closet". Yet, we did see that Rossi's chief engineer turned out to be James Bass, an out of work PC technician. Who are these visitors, after one year, still not willing to come forth? Very questionable.


    I am most disappointed in Alan Smith, but so be it. He too, refuses to acknowledge Rossi's atrocities and continues to throw the occasional thumbs up to him. Truly extraordinary from someone who is clearly smart and experienced. He was quick to throw shade at Johnny 5 for FAR, FAR, FAR less than what Rossi has done.

    If Alan cannot state this last demo was a real black eye to LENR, then he will not critique ANYONE who is in his "European Circle" evidently. My confidence that Alan will call a spade a spade, when it comes to certain circles is now gone. I certainly doubt A.S. would ever critique R.G. This last demo needs to be castigated by the LENR community leaders. Rossi is giving a horrible black eye to it. R.G. and A.S. supporting Rossi is doing nothing but damaging themselves and the field. Just like A.A., you cannot admit it, even it you know it.


    Who am I to say...... ? I am not making posts about the fossil fuel age being over. That it will only be months and now a year later nothing. I am not stating that "reputable parties are reviewing our work", yet not a peep from any of them. I am making no claims as such. I can however, see a sham, a charlatan, a con artist. I have had many years of industrial engineering, research, certifications (UL and UE), business mergers, management and finance. I have lived many years in the real world and most here have as well. The vast majority here, who have experience and a clear mind agree.... Rossi is a con. Therefore, when people support one as such, their judgement is in dire question. (Perhaps they have not taken time to really investigate, but then they should not be casting support!)


    Will Frank Ackland state where he traveled too? Probably not, because it was probably to Rossi's condo. Frank is financially involved.

    Will Lewan ever do true journalism. No, he is hawking books.

    Will any customer come forth? No, just like Doral, there is no customer. Rossi lies and he lies all the time. Rossi states people want to be left alone. The Doral location was known for over a year and there were no crowds, no media circus, no protest marches! Rossi is simply making BS excuses. There are plenty of companies who would LOVE the attention of introducing truly "GREEN" and endless energy! This excuse is BS. It is simply his scam requires it to be secret.


    It is no wonder that the legitimate researchers do not take part in this blog. There is still too much a Rossi tarnish on it, Too bad, it would be nice to see some real research, real data, real events. No "dancing" involved! (Sorry Magic sound.... you do good work, I do not mean to include you! )


    Shane, I know relations are probably a bit extended. You for the most part call it as it is. However, I must assume you are limited to your full rebuttals on Rossi and on those who still support him, namely A.S., R.G. and perhaps Wyttenbach (sp?). If they truly have followed all the Rossi details, if they state their work is based on or supported by Rossi's work, then that is MOST troubling, as it is clear they are saddling up with a known liar, fraud and criminal scammer. Rossi has nothing, so anything based on his work is nothing as well.


    Well, I had my say!

    A.A. will still be babbling about babblers a year from now. Providing no evidence, no replies to factual questions, just diarrhea of the mouth.


    Rossi will move on to the next eCat since no customers want the SK version but are forcing him to the next revision! (Same as always before) Ha. He has no customers. He has no real working reactor. He is a con.


    And I fully expect, when/if I post next time in the distant future, I will see about as much advance with the "atom ecology" and "aluminum recycling" as I have seen posted in the past year. Nothing substantial.


    Perhaps I will be wrong. I hope I am. But the public data / facts are what they are. It does not look good.

    Quote from PhysicsForDummies

    I am not an electrical engineer, but would it not be fairly easy to generate the 360 W or whatever it is that is needed via some kind of simple electrical device (ex Peltier effect based)? Then feed back that power to the device to run it? If it keeps running, problem solved. The fact that Rossi does not even try this seems to indicate it does not work. With an output power supposedly 60 times greater than input, that should be a piece of cake. Maybe the electrical people can chime in how easy this would be. Since "he" is a company of the highest echelons, I would think "he" aka "they" have the ability to do this.

    It could be done pretty easily with thermoelectric generators. Here is a company that makes some that are in the range of 7-12% efficient depending on delta-T.

    https://tecteg.com/


    400 W would require around 20 of these 21W modules at a total cost of around $1.5K.

    https://tecteg.com/product/teg1-pb-12611-6-0/


    And here is a nice paper that shows how to construct 500W and 1 KW thermoelectric generators using multiple modules.


    https://pangea.stanford.edu/ER…Astandard/SGW/2014/Li.pdf

    At 7% efficiency, a COP of about 15 is required to self-sustain.

    • Official Post

    Good having you back Bob. I see you have not lost any of your sense of outrage! :) Plenty to be angry about with Rossi, as just about everyone here would agree with. A bit unfair in my estimation, to lump RG in with Rossi though. He, with much help from Martin and Alan, really is doing quite a bit, and I can vouch for those "visitors". I have left enough crumb trails about them to where anyone interested can see where they lead. There is a reason Wytennbach stayed with them 9 days.


    As to Russ and Alan still believing in Rossi after this debacle (not sure what Alan thinks)...well, that is because of what they are seeing right now in the Essex Dairy Barn. Yes, there is no data to prove it...which drives some people stark raving mad around here, but it is there. Or at least they think that, as well as all the very well qualified visitors. Russ wants this to break ASAP, but first they have to get their results confirmed in one of the best equipped labs in the world. That is on the fast track, and will take place soon. They are absolutely confident what they are seeing everyday, will be repeated there. It is really happening, is real, and not another Rossi story in the making.


    That said, as you compliment me on; I am a straight shooter. In that vein, I will continue to report honestly on my feelings about Rossi, while relaying to the forum the thoughts, and reasoning of those well qualified in the sciences, who elect to stick with him. It is as fascinating to me, as everyone else. Only difference, is that I respect their right to believe in him, while some others do not.

    Can we please be a little more specific instead of saying some people believe in Rossi and others don't?


    I believe Rossi's technology most likely works, even though with the SK I have no proof.


    But I also think that the E-Cat saga is now over unless someone replicates.

    In terms of Mats Lewan’s article, he seems like a nice genuine guy. I read his book and liked it. But he is providing way too much cover for Rossi. He acts a little skeptical but then says things like:


    From Mats:

    “But again—even though the presentation could be considered to be sloppy, the message is clear: Orders for heat produced commercially by the E-Cat SK can now be made, with delivery within weeks.“


    By saying this Mats is implying that everything AR is saying and promoting has some merit. AR has been in multiple lawsuits, sued for fraud, and has been caught lying multiple times on different fronts. Nothing is clear with AR, and nothing is clear from that video. I think there is no reason to believe that AR will deliver a working e-cat within weeks to anyone.


    From Mats

    “In other words—Rossi might be the first of a series of technology companies launching a commercial energy service based on LENR, which is still considered to be impossible by many scientists, yet having the potential to disrupt the energy sector and to bring huge change to the world.“


    Why say that AR might be the first versus anyone else? What has he demonstrated to warrant such hope? Why might AR be the first based on anything from the video? Why always go to the most hopeful, positive scenario?


    I realize I sound like old Mary Yugo here, but think of all of the years AR has been at this and the video he produced. This can’t be taken seriously in my opinion.

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